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	<title>Comments on: Against &#8220;non-overlapping magisteria&#8221;</title>
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	<description>Philosophy through multiple traditions</description>
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		<title>By: Why worry about contradictions? &#124; Love of All Wisdom</title>
		<link>http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/11/against-non-overlapping-magisteria/comment-page-1/#comment-928</link>
		<dc:creator>Why worry about contradictions? &#124; Love of All Wisdom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jan 2010 19:50:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://loveofallwisdom.com/?p=673#comment-928</guid>
		<description>[...] believe, and do, in another.&#8221; In a sense, Fish is taking up the logical implications of the NOMA view more seriously than Stephen Jay Gould had himself: &#8220;science&#8221; and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] believe, and do, in another.&#8221; In a sense, Fish is taking up the logical implications of the NOMA view more seriously than Stephen Jay Gould had himself: &#8220;science&#8221; and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Following science as a layperson &#124; Love of All Wisdom</title>
		<link>http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/11/against-non-overlapping-magisteria/comment-page-1/#comment-725</link>
		<dc:creator>Following science as a layperson &#124; Love of All Wisdom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Dec 2009 21:01:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://loveofallwisdom.com/?p=673#comment-725</guid>
		<description>[...] lose it almost instantly as the science changes.  Ken Wilber, trained as a biochemist, tries to isolate science from mysticism and enlightenment in order to make sure that his conception of mysticism is protected when the science inevitably [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] lose it almost instantly as the science changes.  Ken Wilber, trained as a biochemist, tries to isolate science from mysticism and enlightenment in order to make sure that his conception of mysticism is protected when the science inevitably [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Amod Lele</title>
		<link>http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/11/against-non-overlapping-magisteria/comment-page-1/#comment-648</link>
		<dc:creator>Amod Lele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 15:28:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://loveofallwisdom.com/?p=673#comment-648</guid>
		<description>Of course I don&#039;t mind, and please don&#039;t worry about &quot;going beyond your depth.&quot; The nature of this site means that nobody here is an expert at everything under discussion, including me. Maybe especially not me. And besides, with the glorification of subject expertise in academia these days, I find that specialists in a field increasingly ignore the most pressing and basic questions that an outsider brings.

The conundrum you present here is a hugely important one: which comes first, epistemology or ontology? (&quot;First&quot; in a logical or foundational sense, not a chronological sense.) I&#039;ve wondered about it a fair bit. Taking faith as a starting point helps with a lot of things; especially with practice, the fact that you have to actually live your life and not just understand it. But if it&#039;s faith seeking understanding (and in your case it&#039;s hard for me to imagine it being anything else), you&#039;re going to want to push further.

The way that I&#039;ve most often seen the issue resolved is to acknowledge that, at the most fundamental level, mental constructs and objective ground are ultimately the same - which is basically to say an idealist view of the world, in which reality is mind. Hegel and Indian Advaita Vedānta tradition both go here, in different ways: Hegel seeing the ultimate objective ground as a world spirit developing in history, Advaita seeing it as an undifferentiated unity in which the subject-object distinction is finally transcended. (Ken Wilber tries to have it both of these ways.) 

I&#039;m not sure whether I buy either solution, but your comment has reminded me of one of the biggest reasons that lend plausibility to them. Right now I&#039;m trying to do some reading related to foundational questions in epistemology and ontology before I try and explore my views systematically on the blog. (So far I think my posts have basically been &lt;a href=&quot;http://loveofallwisdom.com/category/theoretical-philosophy/metaphysics/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;nibbling&lt;/a&gt; at the &lt;a href=&quot;http://loveofallwisdom.com/category/theoretical-philosophy/epistemology/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;edges&lt;/a&gt; of these questions. It probably would be good to take a deeper bite sooner rather than later.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course I don&#8217;t mind, and please don&#8217;t worry about &#8220;going beyond your depth.&#8221; The nature of this site means that nobody here is an expert at everything under discussion, including me. Maybe especially not me. And besides, with the glorification of subject expertise in academia these days, I find that specialists in a field increasingly ignore the most pressing and basic questions that an outsider brings.</p>
<p>The conundrum you present here is a hugely important one: which comes first, epistemology or ontology? (&#8220;First&#8221; in a logical or foundational sense, not a chronological sense.) I&#8217;ve wondered about it a fair bit. Taking faith as a starting point helps with a lot of things; especially with practice, the fact that you have to actually live your life and not just understand it. But if it&#8217;s faith seeking understanding (and in your case it&#8217;s hard for me to imagine it being anything else), you&#8217;re going to want to push further.</p>
<p>The way that I&#8217;ve most often seen the issue resolved is to acknowledge that, at the most fundamental level, mental constructs and objective ground are ultimately the same &#8211; which is basically to say an idealist view of the world, in which reality is mind. Hegel and Indian Advaita Vedānta tradition both go here, in different ways: Hegel seeing the ultimate objective ground as a world spirit developing in history, Advaita seeing it as an undifferentiated unity in which the subject-object distinction is finally transcended. (Ken Wilber tries to have it both of these ways.) </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure whether I buy either solution, but your comment has reminded me of one of the biggest reasons that lend plausibility to them. Right now I&#8217;m trying to do some reading related to foundational questions in epistemology and ontology before I try and explore my views systematically on the blog. (So far I think my posts have basically been <a href="http://loveofallwisdom.com/category/theoretical-philosophy/metaphysics/" rel="nofollow">nibbling</a> at the <a href="http://loveofallwisdom.com/category/theoretical-philosophy/epistemology/" rel="nofollow">edges</a> of these questions. It probably would be good to take a deeper bite sooner rather than later.)</p>
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		<title>By: Topher</title>
		<link>http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/11/against-non-overlapping-magisteria/comment-page-1/#comment-644</link>
		<dc:creator>Topher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 05:57:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://loveofallwisdom.com/?p=673#comment-644</guid>
		<description>Thanks for your thoughtful reply to my question, Amod! I see once again I&#039;ve quickly gone beyond my depth. But this is such an important line of thought that I hope you don&#039;t mind my pressing you further and restating my question. This is my problem with epistemology in the most elementary form I can think of:

Philosopher A: &quot;Any objective ground is a mental construct.&quot;

Philosopher B: &quot;Any mental construct presupposes an objective ground.&quot;

And I can&#039;t conceive of a solution to this chicken v egg conundrum. My response, and I hope it&#039;s a dignified one, is to take the objective ground on Faith, but to restrict my conversation to the constructs. Is a more nuanced stance possible?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your thoughtful reply to my question, Amod! I see once again I&#8217;ve quickly gone beyond my depth. But this is such an important line of thought that I hope you don&#8217;t mind my pressing you further and restating my question. This is my problem with epistemology in the most elementary form I can think of:</p>
<p>Philosopher A: &#8220;Any objective ground is a mental construct.&#8221;</p>
<p>Philosopher B: &#8220;Any mental construct presupposes an objective ground.&#8221;</p>
<p>And I can&#8217;t conceive of a solution to this chicken v egg conundrum. My response, and I hope it&#8217;s a dignified one, is to take the objective ground on Faith, but to restrict my conversation to the constructs. Is a more nuanced stance possible?</p>
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		<title>By: Amod Lele</title>
		<link>http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/11/against-non-overlapping-magisteria/comment-page-1/#comment-642</link>
		<dc:creator>Amod Lele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 04:16:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://loveofallwisdom.com/?p=673#comment-642</guid>
		<description>It is important to note that myths have functions beyond the literal, I&#039;ll grant. I think it would be a tremendous mistake, though, to reduce the phenomena we call &quot;religion&quot; to myth/os entirely. I don&#039;t think there is a sense in the suttas, for example, that the Noble Truths are meant to be taken as metaphors - they are among the truths that the myths point to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is important to note that myths have functions beyond the literal, I&#8217;ll grant. I think it would be a tremendous mistake, though, to reduce the phenomena we call &#8220;religion&#8221; to myth/os entirely. I don&#8217;t think there is a sense in the suttas, for example, that the Noble Truths are meant to be taken as metaphors &#8211; they are among the truths that the myths point to.</p>
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		<title>By: Amod Lele</title>
		<link>http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/11/against-non-overlapping-magisteria/comment-page-1/#comment-641</link>
		<dc:creator>Amod Lele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 04:14:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://loveofallwisdom.com/?p=673#comment-641</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m skeptical of the category of &quot;the sacred&quot; in the first place, and for that matter the category of religion. I don&#039;t see &quot;religious&quot; claims as being set aside in a realm separate from the rest of human inquiry. The Buddha claims that suffering comes from craving - that is a psychological hypothesis, put in terms understandable to psychologists, and at least in part empirically testable. Nor is Galileo right here, as far as I can tell - sacred texts do indeed speak about heaven, as indeed they must if they are going to tell us how to reach it!

I think your interpretation of the Buddha is incorrect here, as well. I&#039;ll grant that you are at least technically right on the first part that he did not explicitly and directly deny the ātman: he didn&#039;t say &quot;there is no self&quot; per se. He did, however, speak of non-self all the time; and he was pretty clear that the non-self-ness of people and things was &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; among the &quot;questions that tend not to edification.&quot; We &lt;i&gt;need&lt;/i&gt; to know that we and the universe are &lt;i&gt;anatta&lt;/i&gt;, as we need to know they are impermanent and &lt;i&gt;dukkha&lt;/i&gt;. This is knowledge about the arrow and the wound, not the man who shot it. 

(All this is to speak of the Buddha as he is presented in the suttas, of course - some recent work discussed at the AAR suggests that Pudgalavāda was the most prevalent school in early India, so much so that we might wonder whether the historical Buddha actually preached it and not the non-self for which he is so familiar.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m skeptical of the category of &#8220;the sacred&#8221; in the first place, and for that matter the category of religion. I don&#8217;t see &#8220;religious&#8221; claims as being set aside in a realm separate from the rest of human inquiry. The Buddha claims that suffering comes from craving &#8211; that is a psychological hypothesis, put in terms understandable to psychologists, and at least in part empirically testable. Nor is Galileo right here, as far as I can tell &#8211; sacred texts do indeed speak about heaven, as indeed they must if they are going to tell us how to reach it!</p>
<p>I think your interpretation of the Buddha is incorrect here, as well. I&#8217;ll grant that you are at least technically right on the first part that he did not explicitly and directly deny the ātman: he didn&#8217;t say &#8220;there is no self&#8221; per se. He did, however, speak of non-self all the time; and he was pretty clear that the non-self-ness of people and things was <i>not</i> among the &#8220;questions that tend not to edification.&#8221; We <i>need</i> to know that we and the universe are <i>anatta</i>, as we need to know they are impermanent and <i>dukkha</i>. This is knowledge about the arrow and the wound, not the man who shot it. </p>
<p>(All this is to speak of the Buddha as he is presented in the suttas, of course &#8211; some recent work discussed at the AAR suggests that Pudgalavāda was the most prevalent school in early India, so much so that we might wonder whether the historical Buddha actually preached it and not the non-self for which he is so familiar.)</p>
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		<title>By: michael reidy</title>
		<link>http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/11/against-non-overlapping-magisteria/comment-page-1/#comment-635</link>
		<dc:creator>michael reidy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 05:28:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://loveofallwisdom.com/?p=673#comment-635</guid>
		<description>Evolution is unquestionably a trap for the unwary who argue from the certainty of Doctrinal axioms.  From the mechanism of Reincarnation which states that birth is due to merit or demerit in a previous incarnation, Sankara deduces (Brahma Sutra Bhasya) that creation must be beginningless because there could be no first births without previous merit.   An ingenious Houdini like wriggle was explained to me by a devout Hindu once.  I can’t recall the details.

Monogenism (descent from one set of parents) is taken to be a sine qua non of Original Sin.  There can’t be Adam and Eve and Shlomo and Esther if there is to be an actual transgression whose stain is transmitted to all descendants.  The word here is that the descendants of  other than our first parents died out soon or something of the kind.

This is not so much a jurisdiction infraction as a mythos logos confusion.  I mean myth in a positive sense and not just an untruth.  A myth may be a way of focusing the mind on mystery.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Evolution is unquestionably a trap for the unwary who argue from the certainty of Doctrinal axioms.  From the mechanism of Reincarnation which states that birth is due to merit or demerit in a previous incarnation, Sankara deduces (Brahma Sutra Bhasya) that creation must be beginningless because there could be no first births without previous merit.   An ingenious Houdini like wriggle was explained to me by a devout Hindu once.  I can’t recall the details.</p>
<p>Monogenism (descent from one set of parents) is taken to be a sine qua non of Original Sin.  There can’t be Adam and Eve and Shlomo and Esther if there is to be an actual transgression whose stain is transmitted to all descendants.  The word here is that the descendants of  other than our first parents died out soon or something of the kind.</p>
<p>This is not so much a jurisdiction infraction as a mythos logos confusion.  I mean myth in a positive sense and not just an untruth.  A myth may be a way of focusing the mind on mystery.</p>
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		<title>By: michael reidy</title>
		<link>http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/11/against-non-overlapping-magisteria/comment-page-1/#comment-629</link>
		<dc:creator>michael reidy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 02:01:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://loveofallwisdom.com/?p=673#comment-629</guid>
		<description>Whilst one may feel that the sort of atheist who says that all religions disagree on fundamentals and therefore they can&#039;t all be right is himself wrong in an important way, the problem is that it is conventional religion that has lit the fuse for this fine explosion.   What is to be said in favour of the proposition that they can disagree as much as they like because there are no facts of the case?  There are no contiguous fact fields as NOMA would perhaps have it and religion at the highest level is an apophatic netti netti which catches nothing.  
 
Metaphysical systems play their part in the shepherding of being.  They are like the thorn that is used to remove a thorn.  Once the job is done both thorns are discarded.  Yet there are predilictions.  For instance I have never been even slightly persuaded by Idealism of any sort but at the same time I won&#039;t say that the Vijnanavadin couldn&#039;t be enlightened due to his shaky grip on reality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whilst one may feel that the sort of atheist who says that all religions disagree on fundamentals and therefore they can&#8217;t all be right is himself wrong in an important way, the problem is that it is conventional religion that has lit the fuse for this fine explosion.   What is to be said in favour of the proposition that they can disagree as much as they like because there are no facts of the case?  There are no contiguous fact fields as NOMA would perhaps have it and religion at the highest level is an apophatic netti netti which catches nothing.  </p>
<p>Metaphysical systems play their part in the shepherding of being.  They are like the thorn that is used to remove a thorn.  Once the job is done both thorns are discarded.  Yet there are predilictions.  For instance I have never been even slightly persuaded by Idealism of any sort but at the same time I won&#8217;t say that the Vijnanavadin couldn&#8217;t be enlightened due to his shaky grip on reality.</p>
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		<title>By: elisa freschi</title>
		<link>http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/11/against-non-overlapping-magisteria/comment-page-1/#comment-627</link>
		<dc:creator>elisa freschi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 22:21:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://loveofallwisdom.com/?p=673#comment-627</guid>
		<description>I am afraid I am insisting on the same point we disagree about (I still believe that St. Teresa may well have had a perception of God), but… why do you think that science can disprove religion? It can disprove a religion such as the one upholding a literal reading of its Sacred Texts (a naive version of &quot;Intelligent Design&quot;), but not one which reads the Sacred Texts as relating to the Sacred and not to the Empirical. You surely know Galileo Galilei&#039;s quote &quot;Sacred Texts do not speak about heaven, but about how to *reach* heaven&quot;. 
On the other hand, the Buddha (as far as I understand) did not &quot;explicitly and directly deny&quot; the existence of an ātman. Rather, he said that it is unessential and, hence, that it is better not to waste time on such vain curiosities –compared to the curiosity to know who was the archer while we are bleeding because of the wound caused by his arrow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am afraid I am insisting on the same point we disagree about (I still believe that St. Teresa may well have had a perception of God), but… why do you think that science can disprove religion? It can disprove a religion such as the one upholding a literal reading of its Sacred Texts (a naive version of &#8220;Intelligent Design&#8221;), but not one which reads the Sacred Texts as relating to the Sacred and not to the Empirical. You surely know Galileo Galilei&#8217;s quote &#8220;Sacred Texts do not speak about heaven, but about how to *reach* heaven&#8221;.<br />
On the other hand, the Buddha (as far as I understand) did not &#8220;explicitly and directly deny&#8221; the existence of an ātman. Rather, he said that it is unessential and, hence, that it is better not to waste time on such vain curiosities –compared to the curiosity to know who was the archer while we are bleeding because of the wound caused by his arrow.</p>
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		<title>By: Amod Lele</title>
		<link>http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/11/against-non-overlapping-magisteria/comment-page-1/#comment-625</link>
		<dc:creator>Amod Lele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:41:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://loveofallwisdom.com/?p=673#comment-625</guid>
		<description>Hey Topher - great to hear from you again. I&#039;d just been thinking about how good it had been to have your comments before.

Your comment raises many different issues, and I think they need to be picked apart from each other. I&#039;m all for knowledge without certainty, a position I&#039;ve become more confident about lately. But truth without objectivity seems rather a different prospect. Truth and knowledge have to do with a known object as well as a knowing subject, and neither&#039;s role can be left out of the process; the philosophies that collapse the two (like Śaṅkara&#039;s Advaita Vedānta) really only do so at the ultimate level where all distinctions are collapsed, not in any attempt to think the everyday world. (Wilber takes a similar approach as far as I know: only at the highest level are things nondual.) We need the object in its objectivity.

Similarly, I have strong doubts as to whether or how a non-foundational theory of knowledge is possible. Theories of knowledge that attempt to be non-foundational (such as coherentism) still seem to require the principle of non-contradiction in order to argue anything at all; and that seems to make non-contradiction into a foundation. 

I suspect I would agree, though, that thinking in terms of &quot;religion&quot; and &quot;science&quot; isn&#039;t particularly fruitful. I&#039;ve &lt;a href=&quot;http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/08/across-traditions-or-within-them/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;expressed my doubts about the concept of &quot;religion&quot; before&lt;/a&gt;. I find it more helpful to think in terms of philosophy, practice and community - but philosophy must include concepts from &quot;religion&quot; as well as from science, without a division formed between the two.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Topher &#8211; great to hear from you again. I&#8217;d just been thinking about how good it had been to have your comments before.</p>
<p>Your comment raises many different issues, and I think they need to be picked apart from each other. I&#8217;m all for knowledge without certainty, a position I&#8217;ve become more confident about lately. But truth without objectivity seems rather a different prospect. Truth and knowledge have to do with a known object as well as a knowing subject, and neither&#8217;s role can be left out of the process; the philosophies that collapse the two (like Śaṅkara&#8217;s Advaita Vedānta) really only do so at the ultimate level where all distinctions are collapsed, not in any attempt to think the everyday world. (Wilber takes a similar approach as far as I know: only at the highest level are things nondual.) We need the object in its objectivity.</p>
<p>Similarly, I have strong doubts as to whether or how a non-foundational theory of knowledge is possible. Theories of knowledge that attempt to be non-foundational (such as coherentism) still seem to require the principle of non-contradiction in order to argue anything at all; and that seems to make non-contradiction into a foundation. </p>
<p>I suspect I would agree, though, that thinking in terms of &#8220;religion&#8221; and &#8220;science&#8221; isn&#8217;t particularly fruitful. I&#8217;ve <a href="http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/08/across-traditions-or-within-them/" rel="nofollow">expressed my doubts about the concept of &#8220;religion&#8221; before</a>. I find it more helpful to think in terms of philosophy, practice and community &#8211; but philosophy must include concepts from &#8220;religion&#8221; as well as from science, without a division formed between the two.</p>
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