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	<title>Comments on: Christmas in North American life</title>
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	<link>http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/12/christmas-in-north-american-life/</link>
	<description>Philosophy through multiple traditions</description>
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		<title>By: Amod Lele</title>
		<link>http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/12/christmas-in-north-american-life/comment-page-1/#comment-729</link>
		<dc:creator>Amod Lele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2009 16:19:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://loveofallwisdom.com/?p=370#comment-729</guid>
		<description>Welcome to the blog, Jon! Important points here - but premised on the idea that Jesus did indeed die in a way that allows for the forgiveness of all our sins. If one accepts that premise (as you clearly do), then it does make sense as the most important part of the Christmas season. There remains the question of Christmas&#039;s significance if one does &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; accept this premies - as I don&#039;t, and Ben does not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Welcome to the blog, Jon! Important points here &#8211; but premised on the idea that Jesus did indeed die in a way that allows for the forgiveness of all our sins. If one accepts that premise (as you clearly do), then it does make sense as the most important part of the Christmas season. There remains the question of Christmas&#8217;s significance if one does <i>not</i> accept this premies &#8211; as I don&#8217;t, and Ben does not.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon</title>
		<link>http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/12/christmas-in-north-american-life/comment-page-1/#comment-726</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Dec 2009 23:30:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://loveofallwisdom.com/?p=370#comment-726</guid>
		<description>I think when &quot;North American&quot; society begins to think of Christmas as a time of year like Halloween or Thanksgiving or in the context of a holiday, they are missing the most important aspect of this time of year... a celebration in the birth of Jesus Christ who I might add died on the cross to forgive us for our sins. It is not a holiday. It is not a time of year when we all receive presents under the tree. These are fleeting moments that do not last. What does last is a deeper understanding of our chosen Christian faith.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think when &#8220;North American&#8221; society begins to think of Christmas as a time of year like Halloween or Thanksgiving or in the context of a holiday, they are missing the most important aspect of this time of year&#8230; a celebration in the birth of Jesus Christ who I might add died on the cross to forgive us for our sins. It is not a holiday. It is not a time of year when we all receive presents under the tree. These are fleeting moments that do not last. What does last is a deeper understanding of our chosen Christian faith.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/12/christmas-in-north-american-life/comment-page-1/#comment-694</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 16:56:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://loveofallwisdom.com/?p=370#comment-694</guid>
		<description>As a scientific aside, I&#039;m not sure how much of that cultural difference (particularly North vs. South) is real.  Now, I&#039;m sure it&#039;s partly true.  But it&#039;s also the case that warm weather changes our perception of how friendly people are!

One of my newer favorite scientific anecdotes is that if you ask people to judge faces in photographs for personality traits, they will score the same faces more highly on friendly/outgoing traits if you &lt;i&gt;make them hold a cup of hot coffee in their hands beforehand&lt;i&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a scientific aside, I&#8217;m not sure how much of that cultural difference (particularly North vs. South) is real.  Now, I&#8217;m sure it&#8217;s partly true.  But it&#8217;s also the case that warm weather changes our perception of how friendly people are!</p>
<p>One of my newer favorite scientific anecdotes is that if you ask people to judge faces in photographs for personality traits, they will score the same faces more highly on friendly/outgoing traits if you <i>make them hold a cup of hot coffee in their hands beforehand</i><i>.</i></p>
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		<title>By: Amod Lele</title>
		<link>http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/12/christmas-in-north-american-life/comment-page-1/#comment-691</link>
		<dc:creator>Amod Lele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Dec 2009 19:49:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://loveofallwisdom.com/?p=370#comment-691</guid>
		<description>In the US that seems like more of a regional thing. In Boston strangers are generally brusque and matter-of-fact to each other, getting things done quickly with few pleasantries. But in the South, it&#039;s normal for employees and customers to strike up whole conversations in the supermarket.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the US that seems like more of a regional thing. In Boston strangers are generally brusque and matter-of-fact to each other, getting things done quickly with few pleasantries. But in the South, it&#8217;s normal for employees and customers to strike up whole conversations in the supermarket.</p>
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		<title>By: Sabio Lantz</title>
		<link>http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/12/christmas-in-north-american-life/comment-page-1/#comment-690</link>
		<dc:creator>Sabio Lantz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Dec 2009 01:28:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://loveofallwisdom.com/?p=370#comment-690</guid>
		<description>In Japan, the customer service is excellent.  Upon entering a shop, the employees will say &quot;Welcome !&quot;  and on leaving &quot;Thank You !&quot;
How about daily brightness and politeness instead of just being nice on Christmas.
I agree with you, good post</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In Japan, the customer service is excellent.  Upon entering a shop, the employees will say &#8220;Welcome !&#8221;  and on leaving &#8220;Thank You !&#8221;<br />
How about daily brightness and politeness instead of just being nice on Christmas.<br />
I agree with you, good post</p>
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		<title>By: Amod Lele</title>
		<link>http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/12/christmas-in-north-american-life/comment-page-1/#comment-686</link>
		<dc:creator>Amod Lele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Dec 2009 20:30:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://loveofallwisdom.com/?p=370#comment-686</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure I get your meaning about eggnog and plum pudding: just that they&#039;re overly sweet and treacly?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure I get your meaning about eggnog and plum pudding: just that they&#8217;re overly sweet and treacly?</p>
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		<title>By: Amod Lele</title>
		<link>http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/12/christmas-in-north-american-life/comment-page-1/#comment-685</link>
		<dc:creator>Amod Lele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Dec 2009 20:25:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://loveofallwisdom.com/?p=370#comment-685</guid>
		<description>Repeating a longstanding and joyful tradition &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; the meaning. As you say, that&#039;s good enough for people who grew up with it; but it&#039;s also good enough for many of those who didn&#039;t. I know Hindus who come to North America and celebrate Christmas without having any intent to convert - because that&#039;s what people do here, like Thanksgiving and the Fourth of July, and it helps them be a part of the culture. 

Same reason we celebrated Diwali in India, without any intent of becoming Hindu. I think Diwali is kind of instructive here. When I went to India as a kid, nobody ever said anything about the meaning of Diwali, in terms of its significance to the gods or to history: we just lit the fireworks and made the sweets (and boy was that fun). But here&#039;s the thing: nobody really &lt;i&gt;knows&lt;/i&gt; the significance of it in those intellectual kinds of senses. Even the &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diwali&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Wikipedia page&lt;/a&gt; can&#039;t agree on the meaning of Diwali. It means the killing of the demon Narak?sura, it means invoking the blessing of Lak?mi, it&#039;s the time of the harvest. The page tries to pull it all together by saying &quot;While the story behind Diwali varies from region to region, the essence is the same - to rejoice in the inner light (Atman) or the underlying reality of all things (Brahman).&quot; But then further down it talks about how Divali is also very important for Jains, who don&#039;t believe in Brahman and rarely use the concept of ?tman. The ritual itself comes first, the meaning is secondary.

The Confucians love to talk about how traditional ritual is one of the things that civilizes us, makes us part of the community - it&#039;s the act of participating in the ritual itself that does this, not a historical or theological meaning that the ritual has. And... I think Confucians like their traditional rituals for exactly the same reasons many North Americans hate Christmas (or Thanksgiving, or Passover for that matter): the whole idea is to share activity with family, including family who are very different from us, family who have poor character, family we don&#039;t like. In our individualistic small-household culture, the holidays are among the few large-family rituals we have, which is why many people understandably would rather not bother with them.

I&#039;ve been backtracking lately from some of the things I said in my (too strongly worded) &lt;a href=&quot;http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/10/a-disrespectful-performance/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;post on performance theory&lt;/a&gt;, and I suppose this is another example. In the case of rituals like Christmas or Diwali, the important thing (even in a philosophical sense, to some extent) really is what the ritual does, not what people say about its meaning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Repeating a longstanding and joyful tradition <i>is</i> the meaning. As you say, that&#8217;s good enough for people who grew up with it; but it&#8217;s also good enough for many of those who didn&#8217;t. I know Hindus who come to North America and celebrate Christmas without having any intent to convert &#8211; because that&#8217;s what people do here, like Thanksgiving and the Fourth of July, and it helps them be a part of the culture. </p>
<p>Same reason we celebrated Diwali in India, without any intent of becoming Hindu. I think Diwali is kind of instructive here. When I went to India as a kid, nobody ever said anything about the meaning of Diwali, in terms of its significance to the gods or to history: we just lit the fireworks and made the sweets (and boy was that fun). But here&#8217;s the thing: nobody really <i>knows</i> the significance of it in those intellectual kinds of senses. Even the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diwali" rel="nofollow">Wikipedia page</a> can&#8217;t agree on the meaning of Diwali. It means the killing of the demon Narak?sura, it means invoking the blessing of Lak?mi, it&#8217;s the time of the harvest. The page tries to pull it all together by saying &#8220;While the story behind Diwali varies from region to region, the essence is the same &#8211; to rejoice in the inner light (Atman) or the underlying reality of all things (Brahman).&#8221; But then further down it talks about how Divali is also very important for Jains, who don&#8217;t believe in Brahman and rarely use the concept of ?tman. The ritual itself comes first, the meaning is secondary.</p>
<p>The Confucians love to talk about how traditional ritual is one of the things that civilizes us, makes us part of the community &#8211; it&#8217;s the act of participating in the ritual itself that does this, not a historical or theological meaning that the ritual has. And&#8230; I think Confucians like their traditional rituals for exactly the same reasons many North Americans hate Christmas (or Thanksgiving, or Passover for that matter): the whole idea is to share activity with family, including family who are very different from us, family who have poor character, family we don&#8217;t like. In our individualistic small-household culture, the holidays are among the few large-family rituals we have, which is why many people understandably would rather not bother with them.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been backtracking lately from some of the things I said in my (too strongly worded) <a href="http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/10/a-disrespectful-performance/" rel="nofollow">post on performance theory</a>, and I suppose this is another example. In the case of rituals like Christmas or Diwali, the important thing (even in a philosophical sense, to some extent) really is what the ritual does, not what people say about its meaning.</p>
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		<title>By: michael reidy</title>
		<link>http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/12/christmas-in-north-american-life/comment-page-1/#comment-684</link>
		<dc:creator>michael reidy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 21:55:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://loveofallwisdom.com/?p=370#comment-684</guid>
		<description>Amod re jew.faq:
We have to consider that the now sacralised elements of Yuletide such as eggnogg and plum pudding are operating as vile blandishments that would erode the Jewish soul.  Vertiginous thought.  

Ben:
You don’t want the Christian bit.  Is that because the Messiah claim is contra yours as an observent jew or you have no time for religion as such?   How do you feel that you are being invited to celebrate the birth of Jesus?  And even if you were by some enthusiast could you not respectfully decline?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amod re jew.faq:<br />
We have to consider that the now sacralised elements of Yuletide such as eggnogg and plum pudding are operating as vile blandishments that would erode the Jewish soul.  Vertiginous thought.  </p>
<p>Ben:<br />
You don’t want the Christian bit.  Is that because the Messiah claim is contra yours as an observent jew or you have no time for religion as such?   How do you feel that you are being invited to celebrate the birth of Jesus?  And even if you were by some enthusiast could you not respectfully decline?</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/12/christmas-in-north-american-life/comment-page-1/#comment-683</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 16:55:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://loveofallwisdom.com/?p=370#comment-683</guid>
		<description>Just because those songs don&#039;t fit into A or B doesn&#039;t mean there&#039;s a C.  Do those songs mean &lt;i&gt;anything&lt;/i&gt;?  Or do people put up the old tree and sing the songs just because they&#039;re traditions that feel warm and fuzzy and joyful?  I suspect that&#039;s the the real (but totally non-philosophical) reason why most non-Christian-believers celebrate Christmas: because they did so when they were young, and it&#039;s full of wonderful associations and memories.  Which is perfectly fine, but it&#039;s not going to convince anyone to start the tradition.

Also, I surely conflated two things into TTMOC: there is the Jesus version, and there is also the enjoyment of family and loved ones and generosity.  However, those two get conflated in popular culture as well: &quot;TTMOC&quot; can refer to either.  Therefore, if I&#039;m trying to avoid celebrating the birth of Jesus, it ends up feeling like I need to avoid the broader theme of TTMOC.  Partly that&#039;s a wariness about christianity being snuck in, but it&#039;s really just more about associations: which things feel pleasant and joyful, and which things feel uncomfortable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just because those songs don&#8217;t fit into A or B doesn&#8217;t mean there&#8217;s a C.  Do those songs mean <i>anything</i>?  Or do people put up the old tree and sing the songs just because they&#8217;re traditions that feel warm and fuzzy and joyful?  I suspect that&#8217;s the the real (but totally non-philosophical) reason why most non-Christian-believers celebrate Christmas: because they did so when they were young, and it&#8217;s full of wonderful associations and memories.  Which is perfectly fine, but it&#8217;s not going to convince anyone to start the tradition.</p>
<p>Also, I surely conflated two things into TTMOC: there is the Jesus version, and there is also the enjoyment of family and loved ones and generosity.  However, those two get conflated in popular culture as well: &#8220;TTMOC&#8221; can refer to either.  Therefore, if I&#8217;m trying to avoid celebrating the birth of Jesus, it ends up feeling like I need to avoid the broader theme of TTMOC.  Partly that&#8217;s a wariness about christianity being snuck in, but it&#8217;s really just more about associations: which things feel pleasant and joyful, and which things feel uncomfortable.</p>
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		<title>By: Amod Lele</title>
		<link>http://loveofallwisdom.com/2009/12/christmas-in-north-american-life/comment-page-1/#comment-681</link>
		<dc:creator>Amod Lele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 23:34:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://loveofallwisdom.com/?p=370#comment-681</guid>
		<description>I tend to think there&#039;s more than just a dual meaning to Christmas: there are many elements of Christmas tradition that don&#039;t have much to do with either of the alternatives you mention. If you put up a Christmas tree from your own property using last year&#039;s ornaments, and existing stockings, and wreaths you collected from your yard, there&#039;s no consumerism in any of that - you haven&#039;t bought anything! It doesn&#039;t have much of a deeper meaning, either - at least, nothing explicit, any more than a jack o&#039;lantern. There&#039;s also no consumerism in a singalong of &quot;Deck The Halls&quot; or &quot;We Wish You A Merry Christmas&quot; either, and neither is there any reference to anything Christian beyond the name of the holiday. &quot;Deck The Halls&quot; doesn&#039;t even have that - it refers to &quot;Yuletide,&quot; a name that &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;predates Christianity&lt;/a&gt; in the regions that use the term (and it&#039;s at least argued that customs like the tree do as well).

So I don&#039;t think that consumerism is all you&#039;re left with if you take out references to &quot;The True Meaning of Christmas.&quot; Is Thanksgiving all about consumerism if you don&#039;t say grace and talk about pilgrims?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I tend to think there&#8217;s more than just a dual meaning to Christmas: there are many elements of Christmas tradition that don&#8217;t have much to do with either of the alternatives you mention. If you put up a Christmas tree from your own property using last year&#8217;s ornaments, and existing stockings, and wreaths you collected from your yard, there&#8217;s no consumerism in any of that &#8211; you haven&#8217;t bought anything! It doesn&#8217;t have much of a deeper meaning, either &#8211; at least, nothing explicit, any more than a jack o&#8217;lantern. There&#8217;s also no consumerism in a singalong of &#8220;Deck The Halls&#8221; or &#8220;We Wish You A Merry Christmas&#8221; either, and neither is there any reference to anything Christian beyond the name of the holiday. &#8220;Deck The Halls&#8221; doesn&#8217;t even have that &#8211; it refers to &#8220;Yuletide,&#8221; a name that <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule" rel="nofollow">predates Christianity</a> in the regions that use the term (and it&#8217;s at least argued that customs like the tree do as well).</p>
<p>So I don&#8217;t think that consumerism is all you&#8217;re left with if you take out references to &#8220;The True Meaning of Christmas.&#8221; Is Thanksgiving all about consumerism if you don&#8217;t say grace and talk about pilgrims?</p>
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