I’ve previously written against NOMA, Stephen Jay Gould’s assertion that “science” and “religion” are completely compatible because they represent two incommensurable domains of inquiry. But there’s at least as much of a problem with the other extreme, the view of New Atheists like Richard Dawkins that the two are completely incompatible because “science” refutes “religion.” (Few seriously assert incompatibility in the other direction, to reject science. Creationists, for example, typically proclaim their acceptance of science except where it conflicts with the Bible – thus the popularity of intelligent design, sold as a scientific theory.) Both of these views, to my mind, are almost painful in their oversimplification of the matter. There is incompatibility between certain parts of each domain. Many beliefs called “religious” are perfectly compatible with the evidence from controlled hypothesis testing; many aren’t. In the “scientific” domain, the only views I can think of that are incompatible with all “religious” belief are those which involve scientism: the belief that the only valid forms of knowing are based on the practice of science. (It’s worth stating repeatedly that this belief cannot possibly itself be based on the practice of science, and is therefore self-refuting.)
New Atheists often don’t want to admit this point. When they accept common-sense views at odds with their exultation of science as the only true way of knowing, they do it by equivocating on their definition of “science.” One finds the point in a recent exchange on P.Z. Myers’s blog. Responding to Larry Moran, Myers attacks what he calls:
the bizarre claim that “No scientist that is also a decent human being subjects all her/his beliefs to scientific scrutiny.” I think otherwise. There is a naive notion implicit in that statement that scientific scrutiny is somehow different from critical, rational examination. I’d argue the other way: no decent human being should live an unexamined life.
“Critical, rational examination,” eh? If that’s all science is, then every theologian is a scientist par excellence. I don’t think that’s a claim the New Atheists want to be making. Rather, the “science” they are defending is a) completely empirical, and b) based on the controlled experimental testing of hypotheses. So John Pieret responds to Myers by saying:
Really? What tests did you do on yourself to see if you love your wife and children? Hormone testing, eegs, what? Thinking about things is not “science” per se. Science is empiric investigation. Nor is the question whether “love” can be scientifically investigated, the question is whether individual scientists do it before they decide who they love.
Myers’s response:
John, yes, we carried out a long period of empirical investigation. It’s called “dating”. Both my wife and I studied the problem carefully, and if I’d been a jerk or she’d tormented me cruelly, we’d probably have reached the rational decision that we shouldn’t marry.
I really don’t understand how people can fail to recognize that we do carry out critical examinations of others and ourself. Love doesn’t just pop into existence in the absence of knowledge or experience.
And as I predicted, you do have a naive view of what “scientific” means. It does not mean hormones and eegs. You don’t have to put on a lab coat to do it. It’s simple, rational, evidence-based thinking.
An excellent point by Chris Schoen skewers Myers’s attempted defence:
We’re all aware that the practice of science, while it perhaps has some blurry edges, generally relies not just on empirical observation, but also on the testing of hypotheses, and also to the related practices of replicating the results of such tests, and publishing such results for the scrutiny of other scientists. Eliding any number of these steps is a sure way to have your findings (or “findings”) mocked. And it is on these shoals that most “pseudo-sciences” founder. There is plenty of what a lawyer would call circumstantial evidence for things like ESP and homeopathy. What there is not, in support of these phenomena, is hypothesis testing, controlled experiment, and peer review.
…
No doubt the probability of denial was bound to increase in proportion to how personal the counterfactual is (your wife.) But it is remarkable how much a scrupulous scientist has left out of his definition. White lab coats aside, without hypothesis testing and publication and replication of results, Myer’s courtship is about as scientific in its method as UFOlogy. Probably less, given the number of publications devoted to the latter. Which is not to say, of course, that PZ’s love is not real, or that his knowledge of it is flawed.
Pieret and Schoen do a solid job of demonstrating that Myers’s love for his wife is not based on “science” – not, at least, on the kinds of criteria that scientists use to distinguish science from pseudoscience. In the further comments to Myers’s post, he and his defenders try to argue that Myers’s love was still better than “religion” because it was based on empirical evidence.
But this hardly satisfies. When one is dealing with individual issues in particular lives, the evidence can lead to conclusions that would be unscientific in any sense of science accepted by New Atheists. A grad-school colleague of mine, who was proclaimed a reincarnated lama in Tibet, told me that he as a child had been able to recite things he had no way of knowing without his being a lama. Based on the evidence of his life alone, rebirth was the best explanation. He had based this view on the empirical evidence of his life. I don’t imagine it would hold up under hypothesis testing in controlled conditions; but it was based on as much empirical evidence as Myers’s love for his wife.
Beyond this point, I don’t think it can be said too many times that empiricism is self-refuting. Can statements only be true if they can be empirically tested, even in the sense that Myers tested his love for his wife? Well, the statement “statements can only be true if they can be empirically tested” cannot be empirically tested. Therefore, if it is true, it is false. The appeal to empirical evidence won’t get you out of the hard work of assessing the logic of individual claims made by both “science” and “religion.”
michael reidy said:
Myers may have been right but inconsistent because in the case of interpersonal relationships the subjective is the objective. Life devises many experiments. Did you give her your last Rollo? Or not. If there were two towels did you use the damp one knowing she was coming after you. Or not. Such symbolic events can be entered on your charge sheet prefaced by the judgement – ‘that means’. In that event and I mean this sincerely, take an old lags advice – say nothing. There is no known defence against the symbolic offence. Perhaps the best thing is to ask for other offences to be taken into consideration so that they may be stricken from the annals of recrimination. If you can manage it, weep a manly tear.
Interesting about the lama. What level of knowledge did he have as a kid? Is it scientific to enquire whether he might be clairvoyant and not a reincarnation? The notion of a tulku indicates that he was the latter. If I’ve said this before I beg your pardon but Pascal’s words are apposite: “For those who believe no proof is necessary, for those who do not believe no proof is possible”.
Amod Lele said:
The example he gave me was being able to recite the Heart Sutra. I haven’t probed him for too much detail on this, and I’m skeptical of his account myself. But it was something that he believed on account of the evidence that was available to him – as is the case for Myers’s love of his wife.
michael reidy said:
Amod writes:
Amod:
Without probing for much detail you are sceptical of his account which indicates that this sort of claim is one which you felt was not on the face of it worth taking seriously. You may have felt that he was trying to develop a bold USP for himself but the Tibetans who must encounter this a lot were persuaded. How? Here was an opportunity missed to find out what counts as evidence in their world view. It can’t be a question of sabda pramana (testimony of a reliable witness) until he is ratified.
The uxoric calculus of Myers-ji is a much more public affair or at least intersubjective by the application of Western romantic metrics. Questionnaires could be and indeed are devised to indicate attitudes. Do I hear Premsia?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16_Personality_Factors
Grad Student said:
Having only read your and Schoen’s post, I think you make really good points, but I think I agree with a charitable interpretation of Myers’ point about his wife.
I think your lama analogy misses a crucial point about love: virtually all humans experience romantic love in objectively measurable ways (though many different aspects of love remain unmeasurable). This is in part why scientists can study people’s experiences with love and take them literally (usually). On the other hand, when (most) scientists study the experiences like that of your lama friend, they wouldn’t take his truth claim about being a reincarnated lama seriously.
Back to Myers. Schoen makes a valid point that Myers’ experience with his wife doesn’t qualify as quality, Peer Reviewed Science. However, that doesn’t negate Myers’ point that his love for his wife is based on experience (dating and beyond) and (in part) logic, key ingredients that arguably makes his decision to marry her a scientifically informed one. He could have even consulted the psychological literature on love to make the scientific quality of decision to marry her even better. In the end, deciding he was in love with his wife was in part based on the best available evidence and logic he had. This individual decision does not qualify as Science, but I would say that it is scientific.
That said, I agree with most of the usual objections you raise about the NAs, just not in this particular case.
Chris Schoen said:
Grad Student,
I don’t think anyone said that people in love are unempirical (although of course they often are; constructing a fantasy Beloved out of the real thing is one of our greatest talents).
This is a goalpost-loving problem. The standard that Myers, Coyne, Moran and others want to establish against religion and “woo” involves questioning one’s beliefs systematically, such as by testing against a null hypothesis. This is a standard that exceeds mere critical examination. If we decide we want to call critical examination “scientific,” we have to explain how this doesn’t render literary criticism or theology duly scientific.
This issue is not whether Myers has good reason to believe he loves he wife. It would be ridiculous to apply a more rigorous rubric than the one he already (presumably) does, which is just the point. Not everything we know comes from “scientific” knowledge. A great deal of it comes from folk empiricism, which employs a species of faith.
Ryan Overbey,
The question is not what is really “scientific,” as much as how consistently do we apply {A,B,C} or {X,Y,Z}, having settled on them. We can’t attenuate between the two based on whether a claim is religious or secular, which is the method Myers implicitly proposes with his example.
Amod Lele said:
Welcome to the blog, Chris! I was going to send you an email letting you know about this post, but you beat me to it.
Grad Student said:
Chris Schoen,
Let me clarify, I think only some theology is excluded by Peer Reviewed Science and everyday scientific attidudes. For example, the everyday scientific attitude which contributed to Myers loving his wife is separate from and contradicts the literalist theology that suggests that God will help you find your lost car keys. Peer Reviewed Science leads to the rejection of other literalist theological truth claims such as Christ’s resurrection, virgin births, etc.
Amod Lele said:
Grad, I think this is fair as far as it goes. But I have no reason to think that Myers’s objections extend only to literalist theologies. If they did, I wouldn’t have any problem with them.
Grad Student said:
Amod Lele,
I agree.
Chris Schoen said:
Grad,
You continue to use the word “scientific” in the dual sense of pertaining to both formal scientific methodology and casual folk empiricism. That’s fine, as long as you are willing to concede that religious claims like “I was called to join the ministry” or pseudo-scientific claims like “My Aunt was cured of her gout after visiting Lourdes” are also “scientific.”
I’m perfectly happy to concede that science is the only way of knowing anything if we define it so broadly, but I doubt this is Myers’ intention.
Grad Student said:
Chris Schoen,
“You continue to use the word “scientific” in the dual sense of pertaining to both formal scientific methodology and casual folk empiricism. ”
Exactly, I’m trying to highlight the dual sense of the word scientific as (a) an everyday scientific attitude (or “folk empiricism” as you put it) and (b) Peer Reviewed Science. I’m advocating that type (a) science only be used when type (b) science cannot be directly applied (like when losing your car keys or deciding on a future spouse). There will of course be overlap between type (a) and type (b) science.
Regarding your two examples of (1) someone receiving a call to the ministry and (2) an aunt being healed of gout:
(1) This example is a little vague, but if by “call” you mean inspired to do good in the world by a powerful story/religious text, then more power to her. On the other hand, if you mean the “call” originated in a supernatural being, then type (a) and (b) science suggest an attitude of skepticism or even disbelief would be best.
(2) Type (a) science (human biology) suggests that the claim of miraculous healing is probably false.
About your concluding sentence:
“I’m perfectly happy to concede that science is the only way of knowing anything if we define it so broadly, but I doubt this is Myers’ intention.”
In this thread I’m not arguing for or against such grandiose claims about science. I’m only defending Myers’ specific example about his wife and his use of the word “scientific” therein.
Ryan Overbey said:
Ah, this is a popular form of philosophical argument.
Myers: I label my love for my wife with the variable “scientific,” insofar as I define this variable as the set {A,B,C}
Schoen: But the variable “scientific” must always mean only {X,Y,Z}, so your love for your wife cannot be so labeled!
How tiresome.
What seems to be at stake here, the political football people are fighting over, is not the word “scientific,” or Myers’ love for his wife, but the set {A,B,C}– namely what sorts of things we can get away with picking out as “critical, rational examination of the empirical world.” You seem to think the intellectual work of theologians and tulkus fall into this set. I have a feeling Myers would disagree. That’s where the interesting and substantive debate really lies.
skholiast said:
Yes, because Myers wants to hold that he can subject lab rats or ice core samples to empirical testing, but not God. When offered his love for his wife as an interesting middle case, he responds that there’s nothing middle about it. Schoen points out just how middling it really is. This requires pointing out that the method of dating really does not sustain rigorous comparison to that of peer-reviewed reports of repeatable experimentation. In fact, there are plenty of “experimental” accounts of encounter with God as well, which catch in the New Atheists’ throats, but are their objections methodological or do they concern subject matter? The distinction is not really that clear. As Aristotle said, we ought not to require more exactitude than the topic allows.
michael reidy said:
Grad:
I think you are correct so I would withdraw my characterisation of Myers as inconsistent. There are phenomena which are universal and there are shy ones which appear in a haphazard way. The recognition of a spectrum of events which are amenable to scientific method might go from litmus paper and its works and pomps at 10 to bilocation at 1or less. As Schoen says it is also the case that scientists can compartmentalise. That proves nothing about their capacity to do sound science. If they were very eminent in their field would that enhance their credibility in the bilocation area? Probably not. Did Newton make alchemy sound?
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