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Advaita Vedānta, Emmanuel Lévinas, Jesus, Ken Wilber, Muhyiddin ibn 'Arabī, mystical experience, nondualism, Śaṅkara, Shaykh Ahmad Sirhindī, skholiast (blogger)
Skholiast recently referred in his blog to a recent review he wrote of Ken Wilber‘s Sex, Ecology, Spirituality. To review this book is in a sense to review Wilber’s work as a whole, for it remains (by Wilber’s own account) the most comprehensive exposition of Wilber’s ideas – although Wilber has written considerably more since this book, some of it in response to critics. Skholiast rightfully applauds one of Wilber’s most important ideas, the pre-trans fallacy – the point that moving beyond something in conventional experience (such as rationality and the ego) is very different from not properly entering it in the first place.
Skholiast makes two criticisms of Wilber, which are closely related to each other, and which reflect his interest in 20th-century “continental” thinkers, especially Emmanuel Lévinas. The second criticism is probably the more fundamental: Wilber, according to Skholiast, is too much of an “ātmanist,” too beholden to nondualist philosophies (of which Śaṅkara’s Advaita Vedānta is the prime example). He doesn’t leave room for the priority of Lévinas’s philosophy, namely encounter with the other.
But while the immediate ancestors of Skholiast’s view may be in the likes of Lévinas, he is right to claim an older pedigree for it. For Vedāntic monism indeed makes an uncomfortable fit with Western monotheisms, in which to say “I am God” is a heresy.
Skholiast reminds me a little here of the Indian debate over Sufi mystical experiences. While Sufism is a controversial phenomenon in the Arab “heartland” of Islam, in South Asia Sufism basically is Islam. That Sufi mystical practices such as dhikr chanting are valid spiritual pathways – this is not widely disputed in South Asia. Rather, as I understand it, the dispute between conservative and tolerant Islam happens there within Sufism. South Asian Muslims have typically all agreed with the Spanish mystic Muhyiddin ibn ‘Arabī that dhikr or similar practices can get you an experience of cosmic oneness, where the boundaries between yourself and the rest of the world all break down. The debate is over what this oneness means.
Ibn ‘Arabī preached an idea which later comes to be called wahdat al-wujūd, the unity of existence. For him God is the only being that is truly real; everything else is an illusion. (The similarity to Śaṅkara should be obvious here.) The experience of unity in dhikr allows one to perceive that true oneness in existence.
Another Indian Sufi, Shaykh Ahmad Sirhindī, criticized ibn ‘Arabī. Instead of wahdat al-wujūd, he described Sufi experiences as merely wahdat ash-shuhūd – a unity of experience. One does indeed perceive that everything is one, but that is only a first step: one must go beyond that oneness because everything is not one. To identify creator with creation is a heresy. Rather, the experience gives you a sense of the true greatness of the one who created everything: “Not ‘All is Him’ but ‘All is from Him.'”
These are meaty debates and I don’t have space to try and figure out my own position on them here. Where I do take a stand is on a methodological issue in Skholiast’s first, related, point. Mostly because of the second criticism, Skholiast argues that Wilber doesn’t do “emic justice” to the Abrahamic traditions. Wilber, according to Skholiast, claims that the majority of Christian saints have got it wrong about Jesus – presumably those who are not “ātmanists.” Skholiast says that this claim “would be astounding if he made it about chess masters’ opinions of the Ruy Lopez, or music critics’ estimations of Beethoven’s late quartets, or even of Zen masters’ account of the Tathagata.” I have some serious methodological problems with this approach, if I understand Skholiast’s criticism correctly. I’m all for humility in the face of great thinkers who have gone before us, realizing they might have depth we haven’t yet seen in them. But the great spiritual masters disagree with one another on matters of fundamental import. If the grace of Jesus of Nazareth is the only way to human salvation, then following the Noble Eightfold Path simply will not get one there. Each side may well be (and probably is) partially right, but at least one side must be partially wrong.
Here I think Skholiast’s analogy to chess masters and music critics is quite misleading. As non-experts we are reluctant to say chess masters are wrong about chess because they have a specialized expertise we do not have; this is one of the reasons it is so difficult to speak accurately about natural science. But it is surely a gross misunderstanding of Christian saints’ claims about Jesus to take them as a matter of specialized expertise. On their own understanding, Jesus is not a specialty, a limited field of human knowledge; He is universal, a truth who saves us all. Jesus doesn’t just happen to be there “for Christians,” he is the Way, the Truth and the Life. If we get Jesus wrong, we get the truth in general wrong. But once one makes that sort of universal, nonspecialist claim (and I think it’s a legitimate claim to make), one necessarily opens oneself up to nonspecialist criticism: if the truth in general isn’t what you say it is, then maybe Jesus isn’t what you say he is either. I’m not at all sure I agree with Wilber’s ultimate position, but I do think that methodologically he is on firm ground.
michael reidy said:
To get a grip on the bewildering divergence of spiritual philosophies and paths without sinking into universal scepticism one has to move from a correspondence to a coherence theory of truth. It’s a figure ground thing. As in the learning of languages that are close or related one must beware of false friends. If a Sufi mentions ‘illusion’ it has nothing to do with ‘maya’, ‘mithya’ or ‘samsara’. Its force and its intelligibility is taken from the background against which it is an utterance. Well you might say; if you want to dig Jesus read the Bible, the Sufis are in the Koran. But they are all different Bibles and Korans and Vedas. Those texts in my view are like a rebus. Do you see that face in the tree? Surely you must! Once you get to see it you may wonder how it was that you missed it there. Another name for that may be apophrenia says the sceptic.
Ken Wilber tends to whizz it all in the blender which is the alembic of his mind. Does he himself have a home or a shady tree? The classic writers on spirituality have had that focus that comes from having a home or a path with heart. I have a feeling that Sraddha comes into this as a sort of confidence that liberates understanding. SES 853 pages, don’t take less. In my pain I cry out – Wilber, stop eating the podium.
dy0genes said:
Personally I sort of lose patience with the religionists who want to have their cake and eat it too. If you believe that Jesus is THE way then you really can’t say there is a universal truth accessible outside of that way. The claims of Christianity really don’t permit that. If you accept Christianity then that is your cross to bear and you shouldn’t be surprised if we crucify you on it. For those of us on the outside looking in it is perfectly fair to say there is a lot of truth in that belief but that as some level they get it wrong. When they claim that you have to be inside a belief system to get it that is also very fair. It would be wrong however to say that since this person needs to be inside such a system to see truth that all people need some such system. I see religion much the way Homer Simpson sees beer–the cause and solution to all our problems.
michael reidy said:
Dyogenes:
All religions believe that they have the truth. Even if they are not dismissive of other faiths they still hold that theirs is somehow superior. My view of religious ‘truth’ is that it can exclude other ‘truths’ but not contradict them. Religious truth is not expressed in propositions that can exclude each other like ‘Jack is wearing a hat’ and ‘Jack is not wearing a hat’ of one and the same Jack at one and the same time. Under this dispensation it is not an invitation to scepticism that faiths contradict each other. These articles of faith are not matters of empirical fact. They are so to speak ‘worlds’. You live them, they make your soul
JimWilton said:
I am tired of skeptics and atheists. They depend on attacking propositions that others assert and have nothing to say for themselves. Among the worst of them, you can tell how much they love to find someone with a rigid and untenable position. It allows them to solidify themselves in comparison as “intelligent” and “free thinkers”. It reaches the point where they don’t even need to have anyone to debate with — they will set up a straw man, defining a two thousand year old religious tradition as a set of simplistic assertions, and then knock it down.
There is no gentleness in this approach. I would rather have a conversation with a fundamentalist Christian with a gentle heart and an illogical belief in an external heaven and hell any day of the week.
All of this is a generalization, of course. But if you think of Christopher Hitchens or Bill Maher you get the point.
dy0genes said:
Michael
I guess what I’m looking for is a way that we can “make our souls” without becoming otherworldly.
So when faiths make empirical claims I am to understand them as not really being what they claim? That’s certainly how I take them since I dispute many of their historical claims but is that the way they take themselves? Competing and contradictory faith claims are not simply internal affairs that we have no right to address: Our collective peace and prosperity is at stake.
Jim
Perverse Egalitarianism has an interesting discussion up on Hitchins
http://pervegalit.wordpress.com/2010/06/01/eagleton-on-hitchens/#comment-7996
I trust that you would not follow Hitchins’ example of throwing all theists into the probable terrorist camp and turn around and throw all skeptics and atheists into the camp of those without “gentleness”.
I was perfectly happy with the peace of Koenigsberg in which we had agreed that thought had limits and there was a place for the enlightenment and traditional religion to cohabitate the earth. But there is a not insignificant minority of one of the world’s major religions who have declared war on the west in most dramatic fashion. I think we need to rethink how we’re going to live in a global society without a global religion. As I read him Wilber is one of those trying for a synthesis toward that goal. I wonder if any such project will be able to procede without offending the various belief it is trying to accomadate(subsume).
michael reidy said:
Dyogenes:
It is just this seeing of religious claims as being empirical or as being on the same footing as any other claims about scientifically testable issues that I wish to deconstruct. That flatland theory used to be called Logical Positivism and it has been revived by the New Atheists who imagine they have invented it.
Your dark intimations about Muslims would be quieted by the purchase of a ‘mormon lock’ i.e. a sliding bolt which would allow you to say”I’m not interested” whilst denying them entry. I speak figuratively of course. Do you actually know any Muslims, have you ever travelled in any Muslim majority countries? Have you ever read any Sufi literature or opened the Koran?
JimWilton said:
You are right, of course. Skeptics love their mothers (and are often gentle and inquisitive).
I was just venting a little.
dy0genes said:
Michael,
I know very little of Islam and don’t actually have any particular animadversions against it. I only mention them as an example, one vivid in the American imagination. I could just have easily used Christian or Hindu or Jewish fundamentalists. I don’t deny that religions are capable (even typically) of transcendence and I assume that any religion, even “primitive” ones, qualify. I would like your thoughts on how we restrain the fundamentalists who use a literal interpretation of their beliefs as empirical facts to justify atrocity. These are not straw men invented by the New Atheists, whatever their historical grounding for such perceptions, but actual human beings who can walk up to you and fire a gun. I’m all for keeping the baby, but the bathwater has got to go. The legitimate question the New Atheists ask is: “Is it the baby fouling the water”. What I would like to ask is how do we make the baby grow up and use the potty.
Amod Lele said:
Thanks for the lively discussion, all! I hope to see more.
Personally I am with dy0genes on most of these matters. Michael, I can answer yes to all four of your questions about Islam, and I don’t think anything dy0genes said was out of line. There are people out there who wish to kill you and me, who see Islam as a reason for doing so. I think that fact is difficult to dispute. Is that true Islam? I would argue no, but in order to do so I must disagree with real self-identified Muslims out there.
I also think that religious truths can indeed contradict each other. Surah Ikhlas (Qur’an 112): “Say: He is God, (the) One; the Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need; He has begotten no one, nor is He begotten; and there is no one comparable to Him.” The Nicene Creed: “I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.” The contradiction is direct, and I suspect intentional. More importantly, this is not just a matter of picking and choosing isolated bits of scripture that happen to contradict each other (an easy game). Surah Ikhlas is the charter statement of tawhid, the doctrine of God’s overriding unity which is front and centre in Islam from Sufi practice to Mu’tazila philosophy. The Nicene Creed is recited every week by Catholics as the very core of their beliefs. Indivisible Oneness and trinitarian Sonship, respectively, are at the very soul of a great deal of Muslim and Catholic belief and practice.
“The only-begotten Son of God” and “He has begotten no one, nor is he begotten”: these are very close to “Jack is wearing a hat” and “Jack is not wearing a hat.” Either God begat a son or He did not. Now I am sympathetic to the idea that they are not matters of empirical fact; not all facts are empirical. Even if we were somehow able to establish through historical evidence that Jesus’s life was as it is told in the Gospels (performing miracles, rising from the dead, etc.), that alone is still not a sufficient demonstration that he was the begotten Son of God (let alone the only begotten Son); he could have been a skilled sorcerer. Establishing the truth in these matters goes deeper; but there is still a truth to be established.
So too: Jim, I agree with your impatience toward the bilious ventings of Hitchens and Maher; but am glad you recognize that not all skeptics are such. From what I have seen of Sam Harris, for example, he has considerably more sympathy and charity for the other side – more, certainly, than the likes of jerry Falwell. I know a number of Christian fundamentalists with charitable hearts, and enjoy my conversations with them far more than with insufferable dogmatic atheists; but there is no question in my mind that such charity and dogmatism are each found on both sides of that particular aisle.
michael reidy said:
Amod:
I am aware of the straightforward contradictions between the tenets of the various faiths as they are understood by their adherents and I am aware that they take these to be quasi-empirical claims. What I am offering is an understanding which would be taken as heretical by some if not all of them. It is a theo-logico-philosophical speculation which seeks to save the ‘differences’. It is a way of avoiding on the one hand or shin the nipping of the saloon bar Socrates such as Ditchkins and on the other the fulminations of clerics of whatever persuasion. These ideas as you will know are current in certain areas of Advaita and to be discerned in the Sufism that Henry Corbin writes about. I am thinking about the imaginal and also the idea the Frithjof Schuon promotes of a
(from Stations of Wisdom)
All this is very esoteric no doubt but it is important to develop an understanding in however an inchoate way that leads to mutual respect between different traditions. The mad mullah’s willingness to attack America is not due to the vile ferenghis who live there but that they will insist on sorting out his troubles for him and don’t stay at home. You could say that it was overdetermined. We in Ireland have nothing to fear from the Muslims that live here, none of them are fomenting plots. As a nation that has experienced colonialism we are cool towards Israel. This matters. Religion can be use to magnify grievance but the source must be already there.
Amod Lele said:
Ah. Well put, and I think I misread your earlier comment. Once we are willing to admit that what we take to be truth would be widely viewed as heretical by others, and even contradict a number of their views, then we are on firmer ground, I think. I am not at all sure that I buy the idea of a supra-rational transcendent (accessible primarily through mystical experience, one imagines…?) but I respect it and take it seriously. Such a view is of course quite close to the “ātmanism” I defended above in the original post.
Furthermore I can see I misspoke in saying “religious truths can contradict each other”; I was speaking of what is claimed to be “religious truth,” not of what actually is true. Truth, generally speaking, does not contradict truth; rather, when views claimed as religious truths contradict, at least one is likely to be in large part falsehood.
As for the mad mullahs, I am not sure “overdetermined” is the right word to use, as I’ve always understood it as implying multiple sufficient causes. Here we seem to have a number of separate conditions required for international attacks on civilians. It is not merely ill-considered US foreign policy that produces terrorists in the Muslim world; for that policy has been at least as misguided in Latin America, with consequences at least as bad, but Latin American civilians do not target the USA in the way that small but significant numbers of Muslim civilians, through the Muslim world from Libya to Indonesia, have done. That the Qur’an is rife with exhortations to fight in armed struggle for worldly justice, in a way that is not true of the Pali suttas or the New Testament (though it may be of the Hebrew Bible and the Rāmāyana), does not seem to me coincidental on this point.
skholiast said:
I’m arriving a little late to the party, but since Amod started out by referring to my review, I think I should offer some clarification. First, thanks, Amod, for troubling to read the review, though I fear you will have raised folks’ expectations far too high if they think I am reviewing all of Wilber’s philosophy. You are certainly right that SES is his central work so far; but in my short essay, of course, I merely intended to orient people to what I see as at stake in Wilber’s work– both what I think he’s getting right, and where I think he’s, well, partial.
My reluctance to endorse K.W. wholeheartedly has not so much to do with the notion that “everything is God,” qua blasphemy; I’m much more concerned about the inability to do justice to my encounter with my wife, or my students, or my barista, or my pet cat, on these terms. Experience is at rock-bottom an encounter (says my very short gloss), and I find atmanism just comes up short when used as an ontological frame to talk about this.
As regards your specific critique– i.e., that the comparison between chess tactics or Beethoven appreciation and a religious tradition, is misleading– I think I am being pretty faithful to Wilber here. I can no longer quote you chapter and verse, but my sense of him is that he uses this move precisely to turn scientistic dismissal of spiritual claims. Somewhere or other he says, more or less, look, if you want to talk about Mind, sit quietly in your room for five years, then get back to me. This is more or less an argument he derives from Habermas, though of course H. does not apply it to Zen–to wit, we make distinctions all the time about whether someone is in the community that gets to venture critique. There are some minimal grounds for competence, outside of which we don’t really take people’s claims seriously, unless they are accompanied by some fairly clear caveats.
To be sure, there are all kinds of reasons I might opine about Beethoven, but I don’t claim to really get Beethoven. I happen to love the quartets, early middle and late, but the symphonies get more and more heavy and frankly I’ve never been able to love the 9th. Am I right, or am I wrong? Well, who knows, but I’m sure as hell not gonna tell anyone they shouldn’t love the 9th symphony. I would however be interested in a discussion between two great and articulate listeners (and we do admit that there are such) who differed over how the symphony should be played, for instance. And even though I insist that my experience is my own, and de gustibus non est disputandum, sure, still I would concede that there are people who do “get” Beethoven better than I do, and “get” here is more than just “happen to feel good while hearing.”
Your example about the disagreement between Ibn Arabi and Sirhindi is quite apposite. I might be able to acquire the competence to judge this from within, but this would require not just competence in Arabic, but considerable religious devotion, within an Islamic context. (I don’t mean that I don’t get to have an opinion, even an “informed” one, about this debate, just that there’s a lot of translation–of various kinds–involved in how I form it). I do think that an accomplished “spiritual athlete” is entitled to enter debates which leave me in the role of an outsider, every bit as much as I am when physicists discuss string theory or Chinese scholars discuss Mohism. There are differences, of course. Given a good translation, I can opine about the coherence or plausibility of Mo Tzu’s account of human nature, for instance, because I’m a human being and presumably still share something in common with what he was discussing. Likewise, the Christian saints’ account of divine grace has a relevance to me qua human being; but this does not mean that this meaning is readily grasped in all its ‘universality.’ It’s not that Jesus is “a specialty,” a limited field for experts; it’s that human spirituality is such a field, and the great Christian saints are interpreting the universal claims of/about Jesus from this vantage point.
Wilber is generally not cavalier about spirituality as a real discipline, which leads me to wonder about his lapse in this case. My diagnosis is that his atmanism is a previous commitment which makes it hard for him to take as seriously as is needed the I-Thou religion in the Bible. He has made some concessions, or developments, on this front since SES–google “Ken wilber” + “I Thou”– and I remain interested and corrigible, though I think he is not likely to satisfy Levinas.
I quite agree that there are real claims, and conflicts between claims, made in religions. I do not believe it is possible– or at least, I’m baffled as to how one would pull it off– to be a believing Muslim and a believing Christian, precisely for the reasons you lay out in your comment (like you, I suspect that Sura 112 intentionally rejoins to the Nicene Creed). This is because Islam and Christianity (and Judaism) understand themselves as talking about the same thing. So unless there are some distinctions that can get made, yes, there will downright contradictions.
However, not every religious conversation is like this. I suspect, and indeed hope (though I can’t demonstrate especially in even a long comment) that some forms of Buddhism, for instance (and quite possibly of other Asian religions too) are compatible with a Biblical, “revealed,” religion. This is because one could plausibly claim that they are talking about different things.
In short, I am interested in but usually unswayed by arguments that “religions are really all saying the same thing;” what strikes me as a possibly fruitful direction for real compatibility is the opposite claim, that they are saying different things– about different things.
As I re-read this, I’m unsure I’ve done anything but complicate the conversation, but I must say I’ve enjoyed reading all the comments.
Amod Lele said:
I think the idea that different traditions are talking about different things can be taken too far. It sounds to me rather too much like NOMA, except here applied between “religious” traditions rather than between any such tradition and the tradition of natural science. In many respects the traditions claim themselves to be about everything. MacIntyre makes a nice point here too (I forget exactly where, I think it’s in God, Philosophy, Universities): for most Christians in history, to say that God exists is not merely to take the world the atheist believes in and add God to it, it is to understand the world in very different, theistic terms – and those terms will be at odds with the ones in which a typical Buddhist understands the world. Aitken and Steindl-Rast find a lot of Buddhist-Christian common ground in The Ground We Share, but this is where they hit the wall: is God impermanent, essenceless, unsatisfactory? It is at the heart of traditional Buddhism to say that everything has these characteristics; it is, I think, also at the heart of traditional Christianity to say that God, at least, has none of them. To put them together one would probably have to understand God as something like nirvana itself, but that requires an apophatic move away from mainstream Christianity at least as far as Wilber’s.
dy0genes said:
Michael,
” We in Ireland have nothing to fear from the Muslims that live here, none of them are fomenting plots.”
Well I’m glad for that. Looks like Ireland at least will have peace in their time. I’m sure if the radical Islamic fascists (and they are fascists) achieve the goal of bringing down the infidel west and establish a new Caliphate from Spain to the Subcontinent they will refrain from bringing the true faith to your lovely isles.
“a supra-logical – but not ‘illogical’ – dialectic based on symbolism and on analogy, and therefore descriptive rather than ratiocinative, may be harder for some people to assimilate but it conforms more nearly to transcendent realities.”
That is an awesome project. I can only say god bless and peace be with you. But you’ve got to admit that such a project is a very personal thing and not likely to change the practice of the average member of any of the religions you use as springboards. It’s not you I’m worried about.
michael reidy said:
As well as the pre/trans fallacy another good idea from K.W. is that anyone can have a mystical experience. You don’t have to be an adept of some kind. This I suppose would connect to his atmanism. You could say that perception itself or awareness known rightly is a mystical experience. It is to be expected that we may occasionally fall into Being because that is where we are.
michael reidy said:
Dyognes:
Your thinking re Islam seems to be a faith based one and probably not that amenable to the inroads of sound information. I don’t consider the ranting of a limited number of clerics to be representative of Islam. They are also opposed from within their own communities.
dy0genes said:
Michael
As sympathetic as I may be to the human reality of religious experience I also consider those experiences to be beyond the roads of sound information. At heart I am a skeptic and a scientific thinker. At it’s heart Christianity is a blood sacrifice of a son to his father. I don’t think you have to look for the crazies in a religion. Without exception they all make extraordinary claims as fundamental to who they are. I think the silence of the moderate majority of Islam is very revealing about their attitudes towards these “limited number of clerics”. Perhaps your impressions of Islam are so strongly faith based that you are having a hard time seeing it clearly yourself.
Skholiast
I think that a very interesting idea–that the major religions are talking about different things rather than a universal truth. At first I was a little unsympathetic to the idea but I agree, at least from the outside, it looks like Buddhism at least is talking about something very different than the Abrahamic religions. It would be interesting if we could create a family taxonomy of religion. Sort of divide them up like we do languages. It seems to undermine the infinite and universal claims they make but then our own concepts of those words keeps changing. Not a surprise that a limited creature would struggle with unlimited concepts. I speculate that we may be choosing our own universe within the multiverse with our spiritual choices. Maybe in the end they are all true in some afterlife. Mine isn’t going to have a hell in it.
skholiast said:
I would not want to press this too far. I do think that religions can conflict, particularly on ontology and on cosmology. But it does strike me that even here, a degree of assimilation and mutual transformation is possible. I plan eventually to post something on this. A little bit of it is now here:
Wilber & the religions of the book
But that post is mostly a longer response to some of what Amod argues.
michael reidy said:
Skholiast:
It could be held that it is at the ontological level that the similarities between the major religious traditions is to be found. Take for example the concept of Eternal Words which Shankaracarya proposes in Brahma Sutra Bhyasa I.ii.28. The uncanny likeness to Plato’s ideas is evident. I have a note on this in http://ombhurbhuva.blogspot.com/2010/04/vedic-words.html
The influence of Platonism on early Christianity is well known.
There is moreover a broad structural similarity to the Realism of Shankaracarya and that of Aristotle and Aquinas. Thinkers both East and West have gotten fascinated by the analogy of illusion and taken it as a straightforward homology. The philosophy of Sankar’s Advaita Vedanta by Shyama Kumar Chattopadhyaya is available for complete perusal on Google Books. He takes that line so it is not merely a freak of my own.
It is Buddhism alone that takes a determined Idealist stance but perhaps someone will explain to me how it is not really Idealism. K.W. impugns the general acceptance of anatta in an interesting note on pg.523. I find that with the work of K.W. that whereas I read him with interest I hardly ever go back to him.
Amod Lele said:
Interesting points. A lot hinges on how we define “idealism.” In many respects Advaita seems to me much more idealistic than early Buddhism, which tended to a much more reductionist understanding of the world. Matter is an aggregate there as much as anything mental. Meanwhile for Śaṅkara brahman is cit, consciousness – the one reality takes the form of pure subjectivity.
There is indisputably a very close homology between Advaita Vedānta and Neoplatonism; how close we think Advaita is to Plato himself depends on how accurately we think Plotinus’s take on Plato was. But as you note, Neoplatonism found its way into much early Christianity, from Augustine to the Book of John itself (in the beginning was the logos). I wouldn’t go so far as to take this as a point of similarity between “religious traditions,” however. While there has been some Neoplatonist influence in Jewish thought, for example, it is far less pronounced; and one would be hard-pressed to find any similarities to these ideas in Confucianism, at least before the Buddhists arrive.
dy0genes said:
http://www.nationalinterest.org/Article.aspx?id=23204
Here is an interesting article I read today on what the modern world is doing to Hinduism and Islam in Asia. I think it fits in with this discussion.
Amod Lele said:
It’s a good article; I enjoy Dalrymple’s writing and I think it’s a pretty accurate representation of what is happening to South Asian traditions now. It’s worth being wary of excessive romanticism, though. We might bemoan the loss of the traditions of the god-makers and Pabuji reciters, but did anyone ask the children in those traditions whether they wanted to be the ones continuing the tradition? The answer seems clearly no, given how they’re moving away. To insist that new generations maintain a hereditary tradition seems a little too close to making them a human zoo. In this era, I think what will rightfully sustain old traditions is outsider interest – the kind of thing that is derided as cultural tourism. If the greatest vintners of the next generation are Japanese while the epic of Pabuji is learned and recited by Norwegians, I for one will call that progress.
Amod Lele said:
As for its relevance to this discussion: definitely, although somewhat indirectly. Sirhindī wasn’t just known for this encounter-based strain of mysticism; he also had a somewhat wild-eyed intolerance for the “infidels,” and part of what motivated the wahdat ash-shuhūd was a desire to maintain a Sufi mysticism separate and different from indigenous mystical traditions. The contemporary separation between Hinduism and Islam would have pleased him.
skholiast said:
Amod, you ask:
“did anyone ask the children in those traditions whether they wanted to be the ones continuing the tradition?”
No, but no one ever asks the children of the tradition; nor do they ask themselves– at first. The tradition seems self-evident until one puts it side-by-side with many other traditions. What is interesting is the apparent appeal of the computer screen and the ipod to the children of bronze idol-makers. Shall we conclude that there is something inherently desirable here? Or just, well, really alluring? I don’t have an answer to this. But I think that we can be wary of romanticism and nostalgia (as you quite rightly suggest) without deciding that the late capitalist leveling of culture is inevitable… or even good.
“what will rightfully sustain old traditions is outsider interest – the kind of thing that is derided as cultural tourism. If the greatest vintners of the next generation are Japanese while the epic of Pabuji is learned and recited by Norwegians, I for one will call that progress.”
It won’t surprise you, I think, that I feel quite ambivalent about this. To be sure, I am a dilettante and a tourist myself. I am wary of snide dismissals of syncretism, but mainly because I am wary of snideness, not because I have a great enthusiasm for syncretism. The scenario you imagine is interesting because it is one of more and more people coming to a tradition from the outside. This raises the question of whether there ever was some special privileged position on the “inside” (the “native” position). I’m not sure. I don’t think the distinction is meaningless, but perhaps even one’s own tradition needs to be learned “again,” to become esoteric in a sense. In MacIntyre’s terms, maybe even one’s own first language needs to be learned as a “second” one. Ricoeur speaks of a second naivete, on the other side of critical suspicion. Perhaps its easier to get to this second naivete when the tradition you are approaching is not your own. An interesting angle on the phenomenon of conversion!
PS: interesting about Sirhindī. The sides we choose to emphasize of historical figures often tell us a great deal about ourselves. Bonhoeffer is held up as a champion of ‘religionless Christianity;’ few emphasize the ways in which he was a committed traditional a Lutheran.
Amod Lele said:
I often tend to take converts’ views more seriously than those of people raised in a tradition to begin with. For the latter have actually thought about it. My first post on authenticity argued that the hallmark of authenticity is the absence of choice. It is that absence of choice that, to me, seems to define the “native” position. And on balance that seems to me a bad thing.
I certainly agree there’s something bad about the “late capitalist levelling of culture”: some traditions will die out, and humanity will have lost them. But when – as so often seems to be the case – this loss is a matter of genuine choice and value among the younger generation (as opposed to economic or political force, which is also often the case), then I think we do well to treat it as inevitable, and in at least some respects good.
Re Sirhindī, I’ve only scratched the surface of how awful his attitudes toward other traditions were (he called for the persecution and humiliation of non-Muslims, in just those terms). I didn’t bring that up in the post because I didn’t think there was that much to be learned from it. While you’ve no doubt figured out that my sympathies lie more strongly with ātmanism than with encounter, I thought bringing up his nasty side would be distractingly polemical. There might well be something interesting to be said about the connection between encounter views and Abrahamic exclusivism, in which this aspect of Sirhindī’s personality would figure much more strongly, but it would be the subject for another post.
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