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Alasdair MacIntyre, Andrew Skilton, atheism, autobiography, Damien Keown, Friedrich Nietzsche, G.E. Moore, John Stuart Mill, Kate Crosby, Paul Williams, Penelope Trunk, Sam Harris, Śāntideva
Today’s post follows up on those from two and three weeks ago, and there’ll be another one next week. I intend the four posts, taken together, to make a statement about the continuing importance of the idea of God: why, in the face of the very real problem of suffering and the scientific ability to easily do without God as an explanation of life’s apparent design, God is still hard to do away with. I mean this on an intellectual and philosophical level, not merely an emotional one; it is not just that we need to bother with God because so many people out have some neurological need for him, but that there yet remain ways in which God helps us to make sense of reality.
I’m going to begin this week not with God, but with Buddhism. Because I think one of the most deep and important elements of Buddhist tradition is precisely its atheism. That atheism is, indeed, a great part of what brought me to Buddhism in the first place. The teaching on suffering was what really got me hooked on Buddhism, but it wasn’t what had got me interested in the first place; indeed, it had initially repelled me. Even despite my repulsion, I’d done a lot of reading on Buddhism during my time in Thailand; that was what made it possible for me to see how Buddhism applied directly to my life, when the time came for me to make that grand discovery. And why? Well, part of it, as I’ve said in telling the story here, was that the temples were so gorgeous and I was drawn into the worldview behind them. But there was also something that had drawn me to Buddhism well before I ever saw a Thai temple, and that was its atheism. In a journal that I wrote while travelling around India at age 19, I had noted that “in my Indian travels it was Buddhism, more than Hinduism or Islam, which seemed the most profound and interesting of the Indian religions — probably because it’s not technically a religion at all. You can be an agnostic or even an atheist and still be a Buddhist, because God or Gods don’t figure.”
I still think this is something remarkable about Buddhism, at least in its Theravāda variant. Unlike Epicureanism, a similarly atheistic tradition which died out within a century or two, Buddhist tradition survived for thousands of years while denying that there were gods out there. And I don’t think it’s just me for whom this is an appealing point: in an atheistic age where we are more aware than ever of the hideous sufferings that befall our fellow human beings, and where Darwin managed to dispense with God as the explanation for life’s diversity, Buddhism provides the kind of wise and enduring tradition that the various theisms provide, without having that God at the core. It is significant in this respect that an outspoken atheist like Sam Harris has spoken highly of “Buddhist wisdom,” even as he wishes to divorce it from “religion.”
But just as Buddhism has some of the advantages of atheism, it can also face its disadvantages – and especially, the one I first spoke of three weeks ago. I discussed the ways that the atheistic thinkers of early twentieth-century analytic philosophy, like Ayer and Moore, struggle to make sense of ideas of value and goodness, often giving highly implausible responses. But I am increasingly thinking that Buddhists face the same difficulty.
Damien Keown, widely regarded as one of the most prominent experts on Buddhist ethics, has increasingly begun putting forth the view that there is no such thing: that Buddhism is “morality without ethics,” in that Buddhists do little to justify the claims they make about what we should and shouldn’t do. I have disputed this claim in my dissertation; in Śāntideva I have found many arguments why certain actions are good and others are bad. I think such arguments are found in other Buddhist thinkers as well. But I also think there is a certain way in which Keown is on to something. The most persuasive of Śāntideva’s ethical arguments appeal to values Śāntideva expects us to already have. They have a means-end approach: since we all wish to end suffering, we should therefore take whatever action is being recommended (avoid anger, avoid lust, and so on.)
But why should we wish to end suffering? What makes suffering bad? Śāntideva responds to this question directly, in a way that no other Buddhist (that I am aware of) does. But I do not find his very brief answer satisfactory. It occurs in Bodhicaryāvatāra verse VIII.103, within his famous equalization of self and other, in which he argues that since the self is unreal, one should prevent everyone’s suffering and not only one’s own. Having said this, he entertains an objection (pūrvapakṣa) to the effect of “Why is suffering to be prevented?” (kasmān nivāryaṃ cet) and responds with sarveṣām avivādataḥ: literally “Because of the non-dispute of everyone.” Or in Crosby and Skilton’s simpler and crisper translation: “No one disputes that!”
But this won’t do. It is not just that his imagined objector does indeed seem to be disputing that suffering should be prevented. What Śāntideva is doing here is very similar to Mill’s argument in Utilitarianism that the only reason one can give for finding happiness or pleasure (or anything else) desirable is “that people do actually desire it.” G.E. Moore thought this the classic example of a “naturalistic fallacy,” of illegitimately deriving a “should” from an “is,” in that “desirable” means what should be desired rather than what is; it does not mean “able to be desired” in the way that “visible” means “able to be seen.” But as Alasdair MacIntyre points out in A Short History of Ethics, there is a way to read Mill which does not rest on linguistic equivocation, and I think the same applies to Śāntideva (changing “pleasure” to “the absence of suffering”):
He treats the thesis that all men desire pleasure as a factual assertion which guarantees the success of an ad hominem appeal to anyone who denies his conclusion. If anyone denies that pleasure is desirable, then we can ask him, But don’t you desire it? and we know in advance that he must answer yes, and consequently must admit that pleasure is desirable.
I think Śāntideva’s argument is most persuasively read as just this sort of “ad hominem appeal.” But this is still insufficient. For one thing, many would indeed argue against ending suffering – most notably Nietzsche, who believed that suffering can ennoble us and make us better people. Or even Penelope Trunk, who, after considerable reflection, decided she would rather suffer because happiness is boring. One could, I suppose, bite the bullet and say “fine, then, those people don’t need Buddhism and their life will be perfectly good without it,” but this is not a response that would be acceptable to the vast majority of Buddhist tradition to date – certainly not to Śāntideva himself.
Moreover, Śāntideva’s very argument rests on denying one of our most deeply felt beliefs – the existence of a self. If even our basic selfhood – the one sole thing that Descartes thought completely indubitable – is available for dispute, then surely the prevention of suffering is as well. One might well reply to the ad hominem: “Well, yes, I believe my suffering should be prevented. But I also believe that there’s a self, and that that’s the whole reason it makes sense to prevent any suffering at all. If you really knock down the self, you knock down the prevention of suffering – and maybe the existence of suffering – with it.” (This point is roughly similar to Paul Williams’s objection.)
In short, Śāntideva – possibly the most sophisticated ethical theorist in Buddhist tradition – fails, like the twentieth-century analytic philosophers, to provide a satisfactory account of why we should value the things we do value. And I suspect that this is not a coincidence: that Buddhists, like empiricists, have a hard time justifying their value system because they do not assign value a place underlying the metaphysics of reality. The obvious objection to the claim is karma; but karma is held to be a potentially observable causal law of the universe, comparable in theory to the laws discovered by scientists. Karma does not make things valuable, and so it does not suffice as an explanation of the nature of value.
JimWilton said:
There is a lot here and I want to give this some more thought.
There is a problem though if in discussing Buddhism you equate cessation of suffering with happiness in the conventional sense of pleasure. This is where a great gulf exists between Buddhists and Utilitarians like Mills.
In the 37 Verses on the Practice of a Bodhisattva, verse 11 says:
“All suffering without exception arises from desiring happiness for oneself, while perfect Buddhahood is born from the thought of benefiting others. Therefore, to really exchange my own happiness for the suffering of others is the practice of a bodhisattva.”
I believe that there are similar verses in Shantideva.
So, the Buddhist relationship to suffering is more subtle than an effort to avoid suffering. It requires an effort to understand how suffering is created (2d Noble Truth) — and in understanding that it is created — understanding that
it is adventitious (3d Noble Truth) and can be unwound (4th Noble Truth).
Amod Lele said:
Yes, there is definitely a similar verse in Śāntideva (BCA VIII.129). But I’m not sure that that makes a difference to the emphasis on the avoidance of suffering. One aims to avoid suffering in general, the total suffering of all beings, rather than just one’s own suffering. In that respect it is comparable to Mill’s utilitarianism, which explicitly aims at maximizing all happiness rather than just one’s own. But there remains the question of why one aims to end suffering or maximize happiness (even if one grants significant distinctions between these two goals).
JimWilton said:
Isn’t it enough for a non-theistic philosophy to respond that an end of suffering is valued because beings desire it?
Buddhism, in fact, exists only because sentient beings are confused and the path ultimately destroys itself. But while sentient beings are confused and desire happiness, isn’t that sufficient?
What is interesting is that compassion does seem to be connected with wisdom. But it seems to be more of a natural state than something that arises from a value system.
Amod Lele said:
As above, the question in response is: what about beings who do not desire an end to suffering? Is the Buddha’s teaching irrelevant to them?
JimWilton said:
If someone is without desire and “pain and pleasure alike are ornaments which are pleasant to wear”, then I think the Buddha would rejoice and find no reason why that person should meditate or study Buddhism.
Since suffering comes from confusion (in the Buddhist view), it might be better to say that the overarching goal is an end to confusion and development of wisdom rather than an end to suffering. Certainly the Buddha would view any effort to end suffering by seeking pleasure (whether through material goods, advanced meditative states, intellectual achievements, or otherwise) as misguided and possibly counterproductive.
The Buddha had to speak to sentient beings in words that could be understood — focusing on suffering gets people’s attention. If you are in a dark room with a person consumed by fear who thinks that a rope is a snake, you may or may not be able to help with their confusion (since they don’t believe for a minute that they are confused). It might be better to speak about relieving their fear or the suffering that is caused by their fear. Later, you can explain that their fear never had any basis.
In other words, are you sure that the teachings on the Four Noble Truths are anything more than expedient teachings suited to a situation?
Amod Lele said:
The question with expedient means is always what they are expedient means to. The ultimate goal seems to be something like bodhi, awakening – but what is that awakening, and why should it be taken as the ultimate goal?
Your description here makes it sound like someone who doesn’t place pleasure as a high goal is already in or close to bodhi; but it seems unlikely to me that that is a good way to characterize Penelope Trunk or Nietzsche.
JimWilton said:
I don’t believe Penelope Trunk when she says that she rejects happiness as a goal because it is “boring”. Boredom, in fact, is by definition dissatisfaction. A desire for an “interesting life” — whether that means a life that is intellectually stimulating, socially interactive or challenging in terms of career goals — is quite firmly within the conventional view of a pursuit of happiness. Trunk is simply rejecting a version of “happiness” that is related to maximizing physical and emotional comfort.
What is a goal has very much to do with the view that is held. The concept of expedient means implies that a person on a path will develop and outgrow successive views — that aspirations and values will evolve. So, a Buddhist might understand the path as a process of evolving views from a materialistic view of maximizing happiness (worldly view) to a view of achieving personal cessation of suffering and liberation (Hinayana) to a view of forsaking personal liberation in favor of benefiting others (Mahayana) to the more non-conceptual views of the Vajrayana.
From within one view, the goals or values are not considered expedient. But from a greater or broader view, the views of the earlier stages of the path are considered very useful but expedient in that there is a further development that can take place.
Buddhism ultimately destroys itself. From the ultimate view (they say) it is a path that need not have been taken. But because there is confusion and suffering the path exists.
Jayarava said:
The Pāli texts give us at least two reasons for not causing harm. Firstly we love ourselves, and we can intuit that all beings love themselves in the same way. (Ud 47 = S i.75). In contemporary terms we have a Theory of Mind that allows us to fairly accurately feel what other people fee by observing their body-language. If we pay attention to those feelings, then we would not harm anyone – because to harm others would cause us to experience their misery even if only second hand, and it would create the fear that others will treat us the same way. And so on.
The second is that we all fear death and that this shared fear has the potential to unite us. (Dhp 129) The certain knowledge of our own mortality is an unpleasant side-effect of self-consciousness. Again the suggestion is that we know that everyone feels like this, and so we treat them as we would like to be treated. The Golden Rule.
My reading, then, is that the basis of Buddhist morality is empathy with other beings, based on Theory of Mind. The morality is ideally expressed as love and protection: ‘Just as a mother would protect her only child; likewise include all beings everywhere in your heart’ (Karaṇīya Metta Sutta: Sn 143-152. My translation.)
And the ethics which emerge from this – in the form of precepts that Buddhists are expected to practice – are largely to do with how we relate to other beings. NB I distinguish precepts from vinaya rules which are mainly concerned with etiquette rather than ethics.
The etymology of the word “pāpa” might be interesting for you to consider as well. It basically means ‘harmful’. Evil in ancient Indian languages is not an abstract. In at least one text pāpa is contrasted with kalyāṇa (A iii.71f) – which gives the suggestion that morality has an aesthetic dimension. To be non-harmful is beautiful.
I think it’s worth thinking more about that last text: Upajjhatthana Sutta (A iii.71f). Here the emphasis is that one cannot escape the consequences of one’s actions – a very interesting application of the idea of karma and rebirth. Whether modern Buddhists buy it is another story, but here the basis of morality is that all actions have consequences that death provides no escape from. This relies more on reasoning, and reflection than the previous examples, but if accepted could be a powerful motivation for not causing harm.
Of course Buddhists have believed in, and even worshipped, gods since the beginning – e.g. there is a Śiva lingam outside the temple at Wat Po in Bangkok, and it was covered in fresh squares of gold leaf when I was there 10 years ago. But Buddhists relegated all gods to saṃsāra – this means that they may control and regulate saṃsāra, but provide no escape from it. And of course no escape from karma. By Śāntideva’s time the theory of karma had shifted somewhat so that karma could be neutralised so as not to ripen, if the Chinese Mahāyāna versions of texts like the Samaññaphala Sutta (DN 2) are anything to go by.
God is simply a cipher for the things we do not understand. A place holder that has taken on a life of it’s own, as if zero had come to dominate our mathematics instead of numbers. God is legacy code. God is MS-DOS. Sure you can run a computer on MS-DOS, but why would you?
BTW I agree with JimWilton that it is an error to equate happiness with pleasure or the absence of pain. Nibbāna is the highest happiness, and what is extinguished is greed and hatred: i.e. our reactions to sense experience. In early texts this is synonymous with upekkha or equanimity. The goal is not the absence of suffering, but the absence of the causes of suffering. And mental suffering here is distinguished from physical pain (c.f. S iv.207). The living arahant still has the latter, but not the former.
Thanks for your interesting exploration of these issues. Personally I don’t see this as a big problem, but one has to follow one’s own path.
Jayarava said:
Something else just occurred to me about your analysis. You appear to be trying to justify Buddhist morality in it’s own right, and I inadvertently fell into the same pattern. But of course for Buddhists morality is a means to an end. By being moral we prepare the mind for meditation. And with samatha meditation we prepare the mind for vipassanā. And vipassanā leads to bodhi.
So the value of Buddhist morality is how it affects your mind. The question we ask is whether behaviour leaves your mind in a state which is conducive to meditation or not?
Amod Lele said:
But this is exactly the question: why should bodhi, let alone mere meditation, be taken as our goal? I have been working above on the assumption that bodhi is taken as the goal because it involves the absence of suffering (as the Third Noble Truth seems to claim, and Śāntideva also seems to argue); and I don’t think a good argument has been made about why the end of suffering should be our overarching goal.
Ethan Mills said:
Great post! I think I agree that there is a general problem of value for Buddhists and other atheists (where “atheism” denies the existence of a permanent personal creator of the universe), but I think the assumption that sentient beings generally don’t like suffering is about as good a philosophical assumption as there is.
I don’t think Nietzsche et al. get out of this assumption so easily, because you can always say that whatever ennobling state they’re after ultimately balances out whatever suffering was necessary to get there. For example, maybe van Gogh lived a sad, difficult life, but whatever sort of nobility or will to power or whatever he experienced and created made it all worth it. This is some sort of appeal to consequences about which the same question can be asked: What’s so good about nobility, dignity, will to power, etc.?
Lastly, I don’t think theism escapes the problem of value either and nobody says this better than Plato in the Euthyphro. If the gods can’t be the source of goodness (and I agree with Socrates there), then theism merely pushes the problem to another level, but it in no way solves it.
Amod Lele said:
With Śāntideva as with Mill, there may be a reasonable case to be made that everyone see happiness and/or non-suffering as a desirable thing. But I think it’s almost impossible to argue that it is the desirable thing. One can certainly ask the same questions of van Gogh’s noble art that one might ask of another’s happiness: why is this desirable? But once those questions are asked, Mill’s and Śāntideva’s arguments no longer have the same power. For happiness and non-suffering no longer have the supreme weight that Mill’s and Śāntideva’s philosophies assign them.
The Euthyphro problem is important, to be sure, but a lot hinges on how God(/s) is conceived. If one defines God in terms of a preexisting narrative or personalistic understanding – the one who gave the commandments to Abraham, the one who killed Vala and Vṛtra, etc. – then yes, goodness seems like it must be independent of that being. But if one defines God as goodness or value itself, as a metaphysical quality in the universe, then I’m not sure that the same problem arises.
Ethan Mills said:
I suppose you could define God as value itself as a metaphysical quality of the universe, but I see two possible issues with that:
1. It’s not at clear what that actually means or why anyone but a theologian or philosopher of religion would call that “God.”
2. There is the same evidential problem that I think exists with more traditional concepts of God: what reason do we have to think such a thing exists? Because it solves the problem of value?
Amod Lele said:
On the first: what it means is the big question, and what needs to be explored further.
But the fact that it is removed from popular conceptions of God is less of a problem. When scientists tried to say that the concept of animals includes humans, one could as well have said “it’s not clear why anybody but scientists would call that ‘animals'”. When it comes to identifying what God is, why shouldn’t the opinions of those who have thought deeply and systematically about God all their lives count for more than those who haven’t?
Besides, such a conception shares a lot with even popular conceptions of God: when you hear people say things like “the purpose of life is to glorify God,” that only makes sense if God is understood in this kind of way, not if he’s a person like any other who just happens to be bigger and more powerful.
As for the second: well, yes, exactly, you answer it right there. Because it solves the problem of value. Such an answer sounds very uncomfortable to people raised in an empiricist culture, where the only thing that counts as evidence is something empirically testable. But I presume I don’t have to tell you why that kind of strict empiricism is untenable.
JimWilton said:
The concept of god “existing” needs to be examined. Existence implies both impermanence (because it simultaneously creates the concept of non-existence) and co-dependence or a relative quality in which the thing that exists has qualities. Qualities can be understood only in relation to reference points that lack those qualities. So, if we say that god is omniscient, that has meaning only relative to mortals who have limited minds.
Existence also creates separation. God becomes something that is “other” than ourselves and depends on our existence.
That is why Buddhists do away with the concept of both existence and non-existence when talking about anything that is absolute. Or, alternatively, have concept of gods that are entirely relative and exist in samsara along with all the rest of us.
Amod Lele said:
This is an important point, Jim. It takes us to the “question of being” that Heidegger made such a big deal – and with a greater focus on the question’s implications than Heidegger had. It’s something I’d like to think through further.
Ethan Mills said:
You’re right that philosophically speaking, it doesn’t matter if your definition of God has anything to do with typical ideas. I certainly don’t think philosophy is beholden to ordinary language or common sense (that would make philosophy pretty boring in my opinion). My point is a little different: anyone is free to use language however they like, but if your idea is that some sort of intrinsic value exists in the universe, why not just say that? Does calling such a thing “God” really add anything to the debate or does it confuse things? A similar argument was given by, I think Stephen Nadler, that Spinoza was really just an atheist because what he calls “God” is so radically removed from anything involving personhood, worship, reverence, free will, or creation. I’m not saying Nadler is right about Spinoza, but he asks an interesting question: what’s the difference between believing in a Spinozist God and no God at all? Likewise, what’s the difference in believing in God as inherent value and no God at all?
Ben said:
Here’s my Devil’s Advocate contribution:
It seems to me, the main thrust of this argument is, “Without an objective standard of goodness (perhaps defined by/as an entity like god), one is thrown into the realm of relativism and its unsatisfying explanations. The relativistic terms do not capture the things we say/mean when we talk about value.”
Well, good! Maybe our old ways of talking about value are exactly as misguided as saying “the sun rises.” To someone 400 years ago, the meaning of those words was not reflected in the heliocentric model. The problem, however, did not lay with the heliocentric model (shame on it, for failing to capture their meaning!), but with the meaning and speech that misunderstood the universe. Perhaps our ideas of objective value should fall into the same bin.
Amod Lele said:
It’s telling to me that it is a devil’s advocate contribution. I have yet to see someone here seriously advocate relativism with the consequences it entails (as above, the point that Pol Pot was not wrong but just different).
The idea that the “evidence” favours relativism really seems to rest on those pernicious empiricist assumptions, that empirical evidence for a proposition is ultimately the only way you can establish its truth. As ever, that assumption is self-refuting, since there is and can be no empirical evidence for it. Once we abandon it, I think we are left with a more dialectical model of knowing in which we start with the preconceptions we have and work things out from there – and it is among our most strongly held preconceptions that people like Pol Pot really were wrong. That’s not to say that preconception is sacrosanct or untouchable, but I’d say throwing it out requires something a lot better than “we haven’t found empirical evidence for something other than relativism.”
For that matter, I suppose I may as well add, we haven’t actually found empirical evidence for relativism either – nor could we, I don’t think. The empirical evidence certainly tells us that people value very different things in different places. It doesn’t tell us whether they’re right to do so.
Ben said:
It’s mostly “devil’s advocate” because I don’t entirely believe it, not because I don’t find it plausible and even moderately convincing. My actual beliefs seem to be similar to the point you’ve worked towards, some sort of deistic/Spinozaish thing that has little to do with the entity worshipped in most religions.
However, I didn’t intend my point here to rely on empirical evidence; we can discard old ideas because of new philosophical thought, as well as new data. Each of those sources includes major strains that towards the idea that value and morality arise from humans.
Non-universal value doesn’t have to be individually subjective, or even culturally subjective. Pol Pot can be wrong because mass murder denies something fundamental about humans (e.g., their agency to make their own choice, to take a semi-Kantian view as example). This is not “relativist” in the normal sense of the word, but still the value arises from the fact of humans in the world, not anything extrinsic or cosmological.
Amod Lele said:
This is well put, and I think it may get at the central problem in the line of reasoning I’ve taken in these posts. I’ve been arguing there must be some sort of metaphysical basis for value… but what does “metaphysical” mean? It could just be something in the nature of humans – in a subjective and phenomenological sense, not a biological or empirically determined one. But that doesn’t necessarily imply something at the heart of all reality, something like God – I could imagine an argument that it did, but that would require several further steps, all controversial. Something I will have to ponder further.