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Love of All Wisdom

~ Philosophy through multiple traditions

Love of All Wisdom

Tag Archives: Evan Thompson

Philosophical texts for philosophers

23 Thursday Jul 2020

Posted by Amod Lele in Buddhism, Hermeneutics, Karma, Metaphilosophy, Method and Theory in the Study of Religion, Philosophy of Science

≈ 4 Comments

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Evan Thompson, Gananath Obeyesekere, Upaniṣads

In my continuing response to Evan Thompson I now turn to another methodological question that Thompson raises: what sources should we be using in a discussion of karma? I claim that my eudaimonist interpretation of Buddhist karma is congruent with existing Buddhist tradition in important ways, so it matters what that existing tradition has to say and how we determine it.

When I had previously said that the traditional core of karma had to do with future results of action – with that basic idea that good actions improve well-being – Thompson had asserted in response that “this idea isn’t the core idea of karma, if ‘core’ means what lies at the heart of the concept’s formation. On the contrary, the core problem, which drove the formation of the concept, is to explain why bad things happen to good people.” To support this claim he linked out to Obeyesekere’s Imagining Karma, which studied the formation of the concept through philosophical texts like the Upaniṣads. In his new reply, however, Thompson now says that “exegesis of philosophical texts… isn’t the right method for a concept like karma.”

Here, it seems to me, goalposts may have been moved. In his previous post, when he was first trying to make the claim that the “core” of karma “is to explain why bad things happen to good people”, Thompson was happy to cite, as his only source, Obeyesekere’s study, which relies largely on the exegesis of philosophical texts like the Upaniṣads. This was hardly a surprise, given that both of us are self-professed philosophers, and that Thompson himself had said, “my aim is to lay bare the philosophical problems with Buddhist modernism.” Emphasis added. But once I pointed out that Obeyesekere said nothing of the sort, then Thompson declared that the right method for thinking about karma didn’t have to do with philosophical texts but must be in the way they “function psychologically and socially” in everyday people’s lives.

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Karma: eschatology, theodicy, or eudaimonism?

21 Tuesday Jul 2020

Posted by Amod Lele in Buddhism, Christianity, Flourishing, Foundations of Ethics, Karma, Method and Theory in the Study of Religion, Supernatural

≈ 6 Comments

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Evan Thompson, Gananath Obeyesekere, rebirth, Śāntideva, theodicy

In my previous post I discussed how Evan Thompson and I may agree in principle that not all innovations to a tradition are legitimate. The real question, then, is how applicable the accusation of cherry-picking (or shopping cart) is in this case, the case that we are discussing, of the naturalized eudaimonistic approach to karma. So the question is whether this new approach is congruous with Buddhist tradition, or with Buddhist sources.

If I am correct that it is, then it would seem that Thompson’s accusation of cherry-picking does not stand. I contend that the traditional view of karma generally follows the view of Śāntideva that good and bad actions bring the agent good and bad results “in this world and another” (iha paratra ca). On that traditional view this pattern is deterministic: every good action ripens as a good result and vice versa. What my approach does is to say that karmic results happen only iha, in this world, because it turns out there is no paratra. As a result karma must be probabilistic and not deterministic in order to make sense. On my view, this naturalized approach to karma entirely continuous with the iha half of the traditional view, even as it rejects the paratra half – and this does not radically change the system because both halves work in similar ways.

I will say more about Śāntideva in future posts. But before going further, I think we need to clarify some key concepts at issue in Thompson’s most recent response. Thompson relies a great deal in this response on the concept of eschatology, so it is important to clarify what that concept means. Regarding the concept of karma, Thompson says:

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Of shopping carts and cherry-picking

19 Sunday Jul 2020

Posted by Amod Lele in Buddhism, Faith, Hermeneutics, Method and Theory in the Study of Religion

≈ 8 Comments

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Donald S. Lopez Jr., Evan Thompson, Herman Tull

Evan Thompson has continued our dialogue with a new reply, and I am now ready to respond to it. This response will be seven posts long, so I will follow the practice from my last round of replies of posting them three days a week (Sunday, Tuesday, Thursday) over the course of the coming two weeks. When they’re all up I will update the index so readers have a convenient record of the whole thing.

To begin with, I’m glad to see that Thompson and I have come to some significant points of agreement. We can agree now that a eudaimonistic Buddhism does not have to suffer many of the flaws that Thompson identifies in Buddhist modernism, such as Buddhist exceptionalism or pretending our innovations are those of the historical Buddha. But as Thompson correctly notes, points of disagreement remain.

Our core disagreement is on the idea of eudaimonic karma. This has two aspects, which each bear examination though they are not separate from each other. The substantive aspect is about the workings of karma and rebirth. The methodological or hermeneutic aspect has to do with the claim that I am cherry-picking. They are not separate because the accusation of cherry-picking depends on the closeness (or lack thereof) of the relationship between the naturalized eudaimonic karma I advocate and earlier Buddhist conceptions that involve rebirth. I want to first approach the methodological issue, on which I think Thompson and I may find some further agreement, and then start moving to the substantive claims where I think we do still largely disagree.

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Why I am a Buddhist

07 Sunday Jun 2020

Posted by Amod Lele in Buddhism, Faith, Family, Health, Humility, Metaphilosophy, Method and Theory in the Study of Religion, Philosophy of Science, Prayer, Reading and Recitation, Therapy

≈ 4 Comments

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Alasdair MacIntyre, autobiography, cancer, Evan Thompson, identity, Mañjuśrī, religion, Śāntideva, Seth Zuihō Segall

On Facebook, Seth Segall commented in response to my posts on Evan Thompson:

I agree with all the arguments you have made, but I think there is one maining major issue that divides you from Evan that transcends all the other issues. That is, as a “lover of all wisdom,” why would you define yourself as a Buddhist as opposed to someone who is informed by many wisdom traditions but holds a special place in his heart for Buddhism—in another words, how is your stance different from a more cosmopolitan one that is Buddhist-friendly, but not, strictly speaking, Buddhist?

I think I have answered this question before, but there is more to say on it. For a long time – including the first six years of writing this blog – I defined myself in just such a way, as Thompson does. Like Thompson, I went so far as to say I don’t identify as a Buddhist.

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An index to the Thompson-Lele correspondence

04 Thursday Jun 2020

Posted by Amod Lele in Blog Admin, Modernized Buddhism

≈ 4 Comments

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Evan Thompson, Eyal Aviv

My friend Eyal Aviv mentioned, even before my most recent round of replies, that he’d been teaching my correspondence with Evan Thompson in his classes and would like to have it all available in one place. I think that’s a great idea and I am obliging him here. I don’t know whether the correspondence will continue – that’s up to Thompson – but I think it’s already worth having an index post here for easy reference. I am listing all of the works that constitute this correspondence so far, in the order that they were published or posted. If there’s more to the correspondence, I can come back and update this post later. (So, I’m just putting this post up on Love of All Wisdom rather than the IPB so I don’t have to update it in multiple places.)

EDIT (27 Sep 2020): There has indeed been new round of correspondence since I first posted this index in June; we have agreed to close it with the final post today, so it should now be complete. I have added links to all of that new correspondence here. I have also added dates to each set of responses, in the hopes that that might make it easier to indicate which set one is speaking of (“Thompson’s April response”), (“Lele’s May-June replies”).

  1. Thompson began the discussion with his book, Why I Am Not A Buddhist (published Jan 2020).
  2. Lele‘s initial two-part review (Mar-Apr 2020):
    Why is Evan Thompson not a Buddhist? (1)
    Why is Evan Thompson not a Buddhist? (2)
  3. Thompson‘s long single-post response (Apr 2020):
    Clarifying Why I Am Not a Buddhist: A Response to Amod Lele
  4. Lele‘s eight-post reply (May-Jun 2020):
    i) On the challenging aspects of tradition
    ii) On being Buddhist and distinctively Buddhist
    iii) Grappling with impermanence
    iv) Is karma about why bad things happen to good people?
    v) The workings of karma, naturalized and otherwise
    vi) Bad things, good people, and eudaimonism
    vii) Naturalizing Buddhism and other traditions
    viii) Eudaimonist Buddhist modernism and the norm of authenticity
  5. Thompson‘s single-post followup (Jun 2020):
    Cherry Picking the Bodhi Tree: A Response to Lele
  6. Lele‘s seven-post followup reply (Jul-Aug 2020):
    i) Of shopping carts and cherry-picking
    ii) Karma: eschatology, theodicy, or eudaimonism?
    iii) Philosophical texts for philosophers
    iv) Karma in society
    v) What would Śāntideva do without rebirth?
    vi) Śāntideva’s passages on enemies and their context
    vii) Theodicy is not the core of karma
  7. Thompson‘s final response (Aug 2020):
    Losing the Thread: A Response to Lele
  8. Lele‘s two-post final response (Sep 2020):
    i) When does karma stop being karma?
    ii) Is the eudaimonist proposition true?

Eudaimonist Buddhist modernism and the norm of authenticity

02 Tuesday Jun 2020

Posted by Amod Lele in Attachment and Craving, Foundations of Ethics, Modernized Buddhism, Self

≈ 2 Comments

Tags

authenticity, Charles Taylor, Evan Thompson, existentialism, expressive individualism, modernism, Siddhattha Gotama (Buddha)

I now finish my present reply to Evan Thompson’s response. Let us return to Thompson’s general critique of Buddhist modernism. He doesn’t “reject using Buddhist ideas in the project of ameliorating suffering and promoting human flourishing.” On that, it seems, we are in agreement. Rather, what he objects to is “the rhetoric and logic that Buddhist modernists typically use in pursuing this project.” So let’s revisit what he takes issue with in this rhetoric and logic:

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Naturalizing Buddhism and other traditions

31 Sunday May 2020

Posted by Amod Lele in Christianity, Death, Flourishing, Foundations of Ethics, Karma, Method and Theory in the Study of Religion, Modernized Buddhism, Philosophy of Science, Supernatural

≈ Comments Off on Naturalizing Buddhism and other traditions

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Aristotle, Evan Thompson, rebirth, religion, Rudolf Bultmann

In the previous three posts I aimed to show, contra Evan Thompson’s response, that the philosophical core of the karma doctrine does not have to do with explaining why bad things happen to good people, but rather with how good and bad actions produce good and bad results for the agent. As such, eudaimonic karma is not “incongruent with its traditional meaning and function.” (I also agreed that the fact of bad things happening to good people is a problem for naturalized eudaimonic karma, but discussed attempts to resolve that problem.)

Now let us turn back to the wider argumentative context in which the karma discussion is set. At this point our disagreements may prove smaller than they seem. Thompson, it turns out, does not deny that

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Bad things, good people, and eudaimonism

28 Thursday May 2020

Posted by Amod Lele in Epicureanism, External Goods, Flourishing, Foundations of Ethics, Karma, Mahāyāna, Modernized Buddhism, Supernatural

≈ 4 Comments

Tags

Aristotle, Dale S. Wright, Evan Thompson, justice, Neera Badhwar, Śāntideva

I showed in my previous two posts how the core of Buddhist karma doctrine is not a response to the question “Why do bad things happen to good people?”, but rather an articulation of the idea that good actions improve our well-being and vice-versa, congruent with contemporary eudaimonism.

Contemporary eudaimonic karma does, however, still face a major problem, one that has already come up a number of times. Thompson is right to focus attention on the apparent fact that bad things happen to good people – not because that fact supposedly drove the formation of karma theory (it didn’t, as far as I can tell), but because it poses a major problem for eudaimonism itself. As Thompson correctly says, “the proposition that an agent’s being good typically improves that agent’s well-being is not obviously true as a general descriptive proposition about the world.” An ethicized concept of rebirth can answer this question relatively easily, in a way that produces a straightforwardly consistent eudaimonism. Without rebirth, that problem is indeed harder to answer.

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The workings of karma, naturalized and otherwise

26 Tuesday May 2020

Posted by Amod Lele in Action, Anger, Death, Flourishing, Foundations of Ethics, Hermeneutics, Karma, Mahāyāna, Modernized Buddhism, Natural Science, Psychology, Supernatural

≈ 6 Comments

Tags

Aristotle, Dalai Lama XIV, Evan Thompson, hell, rebirth, Śāntideva, virtue ethics

As noted last time, I don’t identify the philosophical core of the concept of karma with its origins (which are pre-Buddhist), but with the way it functions in Buddhist philosophical texts. There, I submit, the core idea is indeed “that an agent’s good actions and good states of character typically improve that agent’s well-being”.

To show this point I turn to Śāntideva, as one of the most systematic and powerful writers on ethics in the Buddhist tradition. Karma and rebirth pervade his works, more than they do the Pali literature. But his works on karma are not directed to the question Thompson discusses – to the past results of karma as an explanation for present misfortunes. Rather, Śāntideva puts great stress on the future results of karma: the good and bad states that will befall us as a result of our good and bad deeds now. These include the hells, which Śāntideva delights in graphic depictions of. And they also include the results we get in this life. Consider this passage on anger:

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Is karma about why bad things happen to good people?

24 Sunday May 2020

Posted by Amod Lele in Action, Death, Deity, Early and Theravāda, Jainism, Karma, Method and Theory in the Study of Religion, Modernized Buddhism, Supernatural

≈ 4 Comments

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Evan Thompson, Gananath Obeyesekere, Pali suttas, rebirth, Siddhattha Gotama (Buddha), theodicy, Upaniṣads

Continuing my reply to Evan Thompson, I will focus next on karma, because the reinterpretation of karma is central to my own eudaimonist Buddhism, and therefore it forms a focal point in Thompson’s critique. Karma is Thompson’s example of how I and other Buddhist modernists “recast Buddhist concepts in a way that makes them incongruent with their traditional meanings and functions.” Why? Thompson asserts that eudaimonism is not the core idea of karma, “if ‘core’ means what lies at the heart of the concept’s formation. On the contrary, the core problem, which drove the formation of the concept, is to explain why bad things happen to good people.”

I disagree entirely with this assertion.

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